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Where does excess fat go in a >90% fat diet?

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  • #61
    Originally posted by dallytante View Post
    Greetings.

    Hypothetical scenario: if you are eating more than 90% of your calories from fat, the remainder from protein/carbs, what happens if you are eating "too many calories", eg. 4000 calories/day for a 5'5" 150 pound woman. Will you gain weight, maintain, or lose? Please no "calories in=calories out" claims. To maintain your blood sugar, your body will have to use some of the circulating ketones, as well as produce ketones from protein/fat. However, if the excess ingested fat, insulin levels will be too low to favour fat entering the cells. Your body could then use the process (I forget what it's called) where it burns without purpose--like moving something back and forth. Does anybody with any kind of biochem background--and I took biochem,so I'll know if you're fudging! --have an explanation? Has anybody experimented with this before?
    btw: this 90% fat diet could also be from veg sources, like macademia nuts or coconut. I'm thinking of Atkins' fat fast, but this would be more of a feast.
    You took biochem and say no "calories in vs. calories out" claims. You must have sucked at biochem. Why don't you eat 5,000 calories of butter every day and see if you put on weight...spoiler alert, you will.

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    • #62
      Originally posted by gopintos View Post
      Ok, according to that Link, it says: When you eat more carbs you burn more carbs and less fat; eat less carbs and you burn less carbs and more fat

      So chalk one up to fewer carbs (which it goes without saying eat good carbs, not bad)
      How did you arrive at this conclusion? When you eat more carbs, you also STORE less fat, too. When you eat a high fat diet, you burn more fat but you store more fat. When you eat a high carb/low fat diet, you burn less fat but you store less fat. It's a wash. There is no "chalking up". It doesn't matter.

      Originally posted by gopintos View Post
      It goes on to say: Protein is basically never going to be converted to fat and stored as such (unless you are over calorie)

      So chalk one up to more protein
      No. Protein over 2g/lb of lean body mass is converted into sugar and becomes progressively easier to store as fat. Even if you overeat protein, you will eventually put on more fat. It's advantageous to eat 1-2g/lb of lean body mass in protein IMO for a number of reasons (protein calories count less), but I wouldn't recommend an all-meat diet.

      Originally posted by gopintos View Post
      It goes on to say: Ingested dietary fat is primarily stored.

      So that means.... which leds us back to the original Posted Question, and goes against everything I thought I learned about PB, Fat goes to fat. Pretty much Go Directly to Fat, Do not pass go, do not collect $200.

      ???
      Of course fat goes to fat - it's already fat. The problem is, try overeating 1,000 calories worth of pasta and soda, then try overeating 1,000 calories worth of steak and eggs. See how hungry you'll be 6 hours later, too. PB works because real, whole foods keep you fuller longer and you accidentally take in a caloric deficit versus your old lifestyle. It's no magic metabolic advantage. If you don't care for steak and eggs, you can have just as much success eating chicken and sweet potatoes provided you're eating the same number of calories. Eat the foods that you enjoy, that keep you fullest longest and give you the most energy. Provided you avoid grains, sugars, vegetable oils and what you do it is real, whole foods you can harvest yourself (plants and animals), you'll do just fine.

      So when I went PB I increased my fat intake about 3 fold. I never looked at carbs before, I only looked at fat content. Now I only look at carbs and never fat content. Before I never cooked with butter & not much Olive oil, I would have never conceived of drinking butter & CO, my cup of fat for breakfast, and I just as well have been slathering it straight onto my thighs?[/QUOTE]
      Don't put your trust in anyone on this forum, including me. You are the key to your own success.

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      • #63
        @Jakey & Chocotaco

        Even Mark Sisson talks about glucose going to fat once glycogen is full :

        The Definitive Guide to Insulin, Blood Sugar & Type 2 Diabetes (and you’ll understand it) | Mark's Daily Apple

        "It does this by having the liver and the muscles store some of the excess glucose as glycogen. That’s the muscle fuel that hard anaerobic exercise requires. Specialized beta cells in your pancreas sense the abundance of glucose in the bloodstream after a meal and secrete insulin, a peptide hormone whose job it is to allow glucose (and fats and amino acids) to gain access to the interior of muscle and liver cells.

        But here’s the catch: once those cells are full, as they are almost all the time with inactive people, the rest of the glucose is converted to fat. Saturated fat."


        I realize Jakey is quoting other sources that might disagree with this idea. I find it odd that people are on these forums when they do not even agree with the owner of the website? I can find countless doctors in addition to Doug Mcguff that will say the same thing about glucose and fat storage.

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        • #64
          Originally posted by statikcat View Post
          @Jakey & Chocotaco

          Even Mark Sisson talks about glucose going to fat once glycogen is full :

          The Definitive Guide to Insulin, Blood Sugar & Type 2 Diabetes (and you’ll understand it) | Mark's Daily Apple

          "It does this by having the liver and the muscles store some of the excess glucose as glycogen. That’s the muscle fuel that hard anaerobic exercise requires. Specialized beta cells in your pancreas sense the abundance of glucose in the bloodstream after a meal and secrete insulin, a peptide hormone whose job it is to allow glucose (and fats and amino acids) to gain access to the interior of muscle and liver cells.

          But here’s the catch: once those cells are full, as they are almost all the time with inactive people, the rest of the glucose is converted to fat. Saturated fat."


          I realize Jakey is quoting other sources that might disagree with this idea. I find it odd that people are on these forums when they do not even agree with the owner of the website? I can find countless doctors in addition to Doug Mcguff that will say the same thing about glucose and fat storage.
          No one is denying that once glycogen storage is full that de novo lipogenesis occurs. I think the point jakey was making is that you have to eat A LOT of carbs to fill your glycogen. It's certainly possible if you down a 2-liter a day and eat plenty of refined flour, especially if you're sedantary. But if you're eating a Primal diet and getting much lower carb intake, and getting some exercise a few times a week, there should be virtually no de novo lipogenesis.

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          • #65
            If you wanna see what a diet that is close to 90% fat looks like check out Peter Hyperlipid. One seriously smart dude. Here is a day for him Hyperlipid: What do I eat? (1)
            Last edited by Neckhammer; 04-27-2012, 08:22 AM.

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            • #66
              Originally posted by statikcat View Post
              @Jakey & Chocotaco

              Even Mark Sisson talks about glucose going to fat once glycogen is full :

              The Definitive Guide to Insulin, Blood Sugar & Type 2 Diabetes (and you’ll understand it) | Mark's Daily Apple

              "It does this by having the liver and the muscles store some of the excess glucose as glycogen. That’s the muscle fuel that hard anaerobic exercise requires. Specialized beta cells in your pancreas sense the abundance of glucose in the bloodstream after a meal and secrete insulin, a peptide hormone whose job it is to allow glucose (and fats and amino acids) to gain access to the interior of muscle and liver cells.

              But here’s the catch: once those cells are full, as they are almost all the time with inactive people, the rest of the glucose is converted to fat. Saturated fat."


              I realize Jakey is quoting other sources that might disagree with this idea. I find it odd that people are on these forums when they do not even agree with the owner of the website? I can find countless doctors in addition to Doug Mcguff that will say the same thing about glucose and fat storage.
              staticat, when i came here, and discovered primal, i had just read gary tuabes' good calories bad calories. i was completely convinced that bodyfat came down to carbohydrate intake and that nothing else mattered but insulin. i'm completely convinced that that's wrong, now. neither of us are research biochemists, and (i mean this in the most polite sense) neither of us really care about convincing the other to eat or think the way we do. i think we both want to give advice based upon our experience and understanding. we can point to prominent people that reinforce our understanding.

              mark and doug mcguff are both really smart guys. on this point, the way our bodies process macronutrients and oxidize our fuel, i think they both have a detail wrong.

              in the main, i agree with them. in both the primal blueprint (the book) and body by science (the book), both emphasize the roll of caloric deficits in losing weight. they get that right, and put it in print! i think that they both fail to distinguish between post prandial insulin spike (insulin spikes following a meal), and high fasting insulin levels (a physiological problem that comes with metabolic syndrome).

              i'm on this forum, and i don't agree with everything mark says. and that's how it goes!

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by ChocoTaco369 View Post
                How did you arrive at this conclusion?
                I guess cuz it said: When you eat more carbs you burn more carbs and less fat; eat less carbs and you burn less carbs and more fat

                I didnt think I read it wrong but maybe I read and understood what I wanted to.

                Ok - just follow PB as outlined. Got that. Last night I had lamb and the first cup of mashed potatoes I have had in forever, (basically a mashed loaded baked potato with butter & cream cheese & garlic & chives & some bacon) and it was good, along with my BAS. I am still full. Oh, no that isn't correct, I had my cup of 99.3% fat coffee for breakfast this morning. I am not sure what to think about that now.
                65lbs gone and counting!!

                Fat 2 Fit - One Woman's Journey

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                • #68
                  Originally posted by jakey View Post
                  staticat, when i came here, and discovered primal, i had just read gary tuabes' good calories bad calories. i was completely convinced that bodyfat came down to carbohydrate intake and that nothing else mattered but insulin. i'm completely convinced that that's wrong, now. neither of us are research biochemists, and (i mean this in the most polite sense) neither of us really care about convincing the other to eat or think the way we do. i think we both want to give advice based upon our experience and understanding. we can point to prominent people that reinforce our understanding.

                  mark and doug mcguff are both really smart guys. on this point, the way our bodies process macronutrients and oxidize our fuel, i think they both have a detail wrong.

                  in the main, i agree with them. in both the primal blueprint (the book) and body by science (the book), both emphasize the roll of caloric deficits in losing weight. they get that right, and put it in print! i think that they both fail to distinguish between post prandial insulin spike (insulin spikes following a meal), and high fasting insulin levels (a physiological problem that comes with metabolic syndrome).

                  i'm on this forum, and i don't agree with everything mark says. and that's how it goes!
                  Well it is ok to disagree . I have been reading on a lot on health the last few years and think I have a good idea of how things work. Then I come on here and it seems by reading various posts even the paleo community cannot agree on a lot of things. I guess that is just the human body for you.. but somewhat frustrating all the same.

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by statikcat View Post
                    @Jakey & Chocotaco

                    Even Mark Sisson talks about glucose going to fat once glycogen is full :

                    The Definitive Guide to Insulin, Blood Sugar & Type 2 Diabetes (and you’ll understand it) | Mark's Daily Apple

                    "It does this by having the liver and the muscles store some of the excess glucose as glycogen. That’s the muscle fuel that hard anaerobic exercise requires. Specialized beta cells in your pancreas sense the abundance of glucose in the bloodstream after a meal and secrete insulin, a peptide hormone whose job it is to allow glucose (and fats and amino acids) to gain access to the interior of muscle and liver cells.

                    But here’s the catch: once those cells are full, as they are almost all the time with inactive people, the rest of the glucose is converted to fat. Saturated fat."


                    I realize Jakey is quoting other sources that might disagree with this idea. I find it odd that people are on these forums when they do not even agree with the owner of the website? I can find countless doctors in addition to Doug Mcguff that will say the same thing about glucose and fat storage.
                    We have more than one pathway to fat storage. Absolutely, too many carbs and you'll store them as fat. But there are also metabolic pathways to store fat as fat as well. Just like we can burn both glucose and ketones, we can also store (or convert then store) particular macronutrients as fat.

                    It's not an either/or question. Too much food is too much food, regardless of macronutrients. CI/CO may be impossible to calculate accurately, but certainly once one consistently eats significantly excess calories, fat gain is inevitable.
                    “If I didn't define myself for myself, I would be crunched into other people's fantasies for me and eaten alive.” --Audre Lorde

                    Owly's Journal

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by statikcat View Post
                      @Jakey & Chocotaco

                      Even Mark Sisson talks about glucose going to fat once glycogen is full :

                      The Definitive Guide to Insulin, Blood Sugar & Type 2 Diabetes (and you’ll understand it) | Mark's Daily Apple

                      "It does this by having the liver and the muscles store some of the excess glucose as glycogen. That’s the muscle fuel that hard anaerobic exercise requires. Specialized beta cells in your pancreas sense the abundance of glucose in the bloodstream after a meal and secrete insulin, a peptide hormone whose job it is to allow glucose (and fats and amino acids) to gain access to the interior of muscle and liver cells.

                      But here’s the catch: once those cells are full, as they are almost all the time with inactive people, the rest of the glucose is converted to fat. Saturated fat."


                      I realize Jakey is quoting other sources that might disagree with this idea. I find it odd that people are on these forums when they do not even agree with the owner of the website? I can find countless doctors in addition to Doug Mcguff that will say the same thing about glucose and fat storage.
                      It's very difficult to overfill glycogen stores, especially when eating Primally. In addition, once you overfill glycogen stores, only about 70% of the calories of carbohydrate can be stored as fat. If you overeat fat, 95-100% of excess calories of fat is stored as fat. If you overeat protein, it's closer to 30% of calories that can be stored as fat.
                      Don't put your trust in anyone on this forum, including me. You are the key to your own success.

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by statikcat View Post
                        @Jakey & Chocotaco

                        Even Mark Sisson talks about glucose going to fat once glycogen is full :

                        The Definitive Guide to Insulin, Blood Sugar & Type 2 Diabetes (and you’ll understand it) | Mark's Daily Apple

                        "It does this by having the liver and the muscles store some of the excess glucose as glycogen. That’s the muscle fuel that hard anaerobic exercise requires. Specialized beta cells in your pancreas sense the abundance of glucose in the bloodstream after a meal and secrete insulin, a peptide hormone whose job it is to allow glucose (and fats and amino acids) to gain access to the interior of muscle and liver cells.

                        But here’s the catch: once those cells are full, as they are almost all the time with inactive people, the rest of the glucose is converted to fat. Saturated fat."


                        I realize Jakey is quoting other sources that might disagree with this idea. I find it odd that people are on these forums when they do not even agree with the owner of the website? I can find countless doctors in addition to Doug Mcguff that will say the same thing about glucose and fat storage.
                        That stuff was old hat two decades ago.
                        F 5 ft 3. HW: 196 lbs. Primal SW (May 2011): 182 lbs (42% BF)... W June '12: 160 lbs (29% BF) (UK size 12, US size 8). GW: ~24% BF - have ditched the scales til I fit into a pair of UK size 10 bootcut jeans. Currently aligning towards 'The Perfect Health Diet' having swapped some fat for potatoes.

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Regarding CICO, I found this study interesting and distressing, as someone who's been trying to lose the last 25 pounds for the last year.

                          Metabolic Slowing with Massive Weight Loss despite Preservation of Fat-Free Mass
                          Steph
                          My Primal Meanderings

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