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I am on a juice fast, taking collagen protein and in ketosis - Question:

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  • #16
    Originally posted by drettinger View Post
    Thank you for the reply and the data. I was planning to up my protein to 0.8 gr protein/kg this week and add 1 tbsp (10gr) flax seed oil. I'll even work-out harder this week to really test the above theory.

    Thanks again,

    Dr. E
    As to the harder workout...I'm all for high intensity, but I think they reported limiting to 3x/week strength sessions. I would suppose that you could easily run into problems by doing too much volume on your fast. Anyhow good luck and keep up the good work in practice!

    Comment


    • #17
      I find it hard to get my head around the idea of blending and glugging down a shake, rather than munching on some whole veggies/fruits. Now I think about it, it seems more Grok-like to me, to chop them into halves/quarters and simply devour them with one's teeth!

      I munch on squidgy avocado, crunchy celery and enjoy the sensation of a cherry tomato popping in my mouth and wonder - WHY OH WHY would anyone homogenize these things?!

      Maybe I still have an emotional attachment to food that you've managed to rise above?
      Last edited by CaveWeirdo; 04-23-2012, 09:37 AM.
      Start weight: 238 lbs (March 2012)
      Current weight: 205 lbs (July 2012)
      Loss so far: 33 lbs!!!
      WOE: Primal + IF
      Movements: Hiking, sprinting.
      Goal: to see my abs some time in 2013!

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by CaveWeirdo View Post
        I find it hard to get my head around the idea of blending and glugging down a shake, rather than munching on some whole veggies/fruits. Now I think about it, it seems more Grok-like to me, to chop them into halves/quarters and simply devour them with one's teeth!

        I munch on squidgy avocado, crunchy celery and enjoy the sensation of a cherry tomato popping in my mouth and wonder - WHY OH WHY would anyone homogenize these things?!

        Maybe I still have an emotional attachment to food that you've managed to rise above?
        I got what you're saying. It is something that one needs to understand and believe in before doing. I have treated 1000's of patients, from terminal cancer patients to long-term autoimmune patients, and everything in between. Nothing, I mean nothing can ever replace the sheer potency of vegetable juicing on a daily basis. I have one cancer patient who was sent home to die twice, 6 years apart and within 90 days of juicing, each time she was cancer free (there were some other components, but juicing was the main one).

        It would be physically impossible to consume the amount and variety, including leaves and skins, of vegetation and fruit. 10lbs or more pounds of veg/fruit, per day go into making these juices. Also, the cellulose, insoluble, fiber traps a lot of the phytonutrients - juicing helps to liberate them.

        Juicing is not a replacement for eating, it's just a way of getting copious amounts of fresh, vital enzymes and other micro nutrients.

        This is just a tease for what juicing can do.

        Thanks for the posing. Take care.

        Dr. Ettinger

        Comment


        • #19
          I can see how concentrating the nutrients and removing a great deal of fiber would have a super healing effect. I have felt for myself the wonderful difference that lowering fiber intake can have!

          But in doing so you are also concentrating the sugars. I can't help but question the wisdom of taking healthy nutrients along with a huge dose of sugar.
          Start weight: 238 lbs (March 2012)
          Current weight: 205 lbs (July 2012)
          Loss so far: 33 lbs!!!
          WOE: Primal + IF
          Movements: Hiking, sprinting.
          Goal: to see my abs some time in 2013!

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by drettinger View Post
            Question: I'm in ketosis while consuming 173 grams of carbs. I know that I'm also on less than 1200 calories per day. Since I'm taking 25 grams of protein is

            1. the gluconeogenisis primarily from that and minimally or none coming from my skeletal muscle?
            2. Do I still have enough glycogen in my liver and muscles to facilitate glycogenolysis?.
            3. Is glycerol from triglycerides the only precursor of ketone bodies or is adipose tissue also a source of ketone bodies?
            4. If I up my protein and stay in ketosis, theoretically, can I preserve all of my lean muscle mass.

            Thank you in advance!
            Well, you are actually eating a very high fat calorie restricted diet:

            If your 8.5 lbs. of weight loss was all due to fat loss, then you would be averaging approximately 1 lb. of fat loss per day, or , putting it in other terms, you would be consuming 1 lb. of your own adipose tissue ( autolysis ) to make up for the energy deficit created by restricting caloric intake. This implies creating a daily caloric deficit on the order of 4700 cal. due to 3500 calories from autolysis of one pound of adipose fat and the additional 1200 calories that you are eating. This is a massive energy deficit, and I expect extremely unlikely. Nevertheless, this represents a diet that is roughly 75% fat and 25% carbohydrates, which I would expect to be rather ketogenic.

            If we assume that half of your weightloss was due to water ( we would expect that while in ketosis ), your average fat loss per day would be approximately 1800 calories, making your diet 1800 F, 800 CHO, and 200 P, which still has 65% of calories coming from fat. Again, I would expect this to be quite ketogenic.

            Glycerol is a great substrate for gluconeogenesis as two glycerol molecules can be used to produce one glucose molecule. Mitochondrial oxidation of non-esterified fatty acids produce ketones, meaning that as your body strips fatty acids from the glycerol backbone, they get oxidized and produce ketone bodies. At the same time, your liver gets a fresh supply of bare glycerol from which to synthesize fresh glucose!

            With respect to your question #4, you are probably eating significantly below your maintenance requirements, I think you would need to be at least at 1.5 g/kg of body weight to maintain your muscle mass, and this would depend to a very large extent on your training. Heavier training would imply more muscular trauma, and accordingly, a higher need for protein. Your body needs to get nitrogen from somewhere, and if you don't provide it in the diet, it will be scavenged from other sources.

            -PK
            My blog : cogitoergoedo.com

            Interested in Intermittent Fasting? This might help: part 1, part 2, part 3.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by CaveWeirdo View Post
              I can see how concentrating the nutrients and removing a great deal of fiber would have a super healing effect. I have felt for myself the wonderful difference that lowering fiber intake can have!

              But in doing so you are also concentrating the sugars. I can't help but question the wisdom of taking healthy nutrients along with a huge dose of sugar.
              The biochem of this is too in-depth for this forum, but I have gotten patients off all diabetic medication and balanced blood sugar from juice fasting alone. Manly green juices but there is a fair amount of carrot, beet and apple. I know it sounds crazy with all that sugar but the body just normalizes, I've seen it many times. These are type II diabetics.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by pklopp View Post
                Well, you are actually eating a very high fat calorie restricted diet:

                If your 8.5 lbs. of weight loss was all due to fat loss, then you would be averaging approximately 1 lb. of fat loss per day, or , putting it in other terms, you would be consuming 1 lb. of your own adipose tissue ( autolysis ) to make up for the energy deficit created by restricting caloric intake. This implies creating a daily caloric deficit on the order of 4700 cal. due to 3500 calories from autolysis of one pound of adipose fat and the additional 1200 calories that you are eating. This is a massive energy deficit, and I expect extremely unlikely. Nevertheless, this represents a diet that is roughly 75% fat and 25% carbohydrates, which I would expect to be rather ketogenic.

                If we assume that half of your weightloss was due to water ( we would expect that while in ketosis ), your average fat loss per day would be approximately 1800 calories, making your diet 1800 F, 800 CHO, and 200 P, which still has 65% of calories coming from fat. Again, I would expect this to be quite ketogenic.

                Glycerol is a great substrate for gluconeogenesis as two glycerol molecules can be used to produce one glucose molecule. Mitochondrial oxidation of non-esterified fatty acids produce ketones, meaning that as your body strips fatty acids from the glycerol backbone, they get oxidized and produce ketone bodies. At the same time, your liver gets a fresh supply of bare glycerol from which to synthesize fresh glucose!

                With respect to your question #4, you are probably eating significantly below your maintenance requirements, I think you would need to be at least at 1.5 g/kg of body weight to maintain your muscle mass, and this would depend to a very large extent on your training. Heavier training would imply more muscular trauma, and accordingly, a higher need for protein. Your body needs to get nitrogen from somewhere, and if you don't provide it in the diet, it will be scavenged from other sources.

                -PK
                PK,

                Thanks for taking the time to put all that together - it was helpful. Question: What am I missing here. How did you come up with 75% fat, 25% carb? Thanks in advance

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by drettinger View Post
                  The biochem of this is too in-depth for this forum, but I have gotten patients off all diabetic medication and balanced blood sugar from juice fasting alone. Manly green juices but there is a fair amount of carrot, beet and apple. I know it sounds crazy with all that sugar but the body just normalizes, I've seen it many times. These are type II diabetics.
                  Please direct me to some links about the biochem of this, cos I'm curious now. I'm not a biochemist but I understand it enough to get some sense out of papers/journals.

                  I have no doubt that a 90 day juice fast could rid someone of cancer. And that 1200 calories per day would improve insulin sensitivity. This seems perfectly plausible to me.

                  What I'm puzzled about is the logic of having a patient go 90 days on an extremely low-fat diet. Of course I may be biased by the fact that ~50-60% of my calories are fats.
                  Last edited by CaveWeirdo; 04-24-2012, 11:29 AM.
                  Start weight: 238 lbs (March 2012)
                  Current weight: 205 lbs (July 2012)
                  Loss so far: 33 lbs!!!
                  WOE: Primal + IF
                  Movements: Hiking, sprinting.
                  Goal: to see my abs some time in 2013!

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by CaveWeirdo View Post
                    Please direct me to some links about the biochem of this, cos I'm curious now. I'm not a biochemist but I understand it enough to get some sense out of papers/journals.

                    I have no doubt that a 90 day juice fast could rid someone of cancer. And that 1200 calories per day would improve insulin sensitivity. This seems perfectly plausible to me.

                    What I'm puzzled about is the logic of having a patient go 90 days on an extremely low-fat diet. Of course I may be biased by the fact that ~50-60% of my calories are fats.
                    I didn't cover the entire program, just the juicing part. Fat is definitely included (see this post) The Budwig Diet - Flaxseed Oil And Cottage Cheese Quark Diet

                    Cancer doesn't use fat in any way so additional fat just helps the individual not the cancer. Cancer loves: sugar, acidity and hypoxia (low oxygen) and hates ketosis or low blood glucose, alkalinity and oxygen saturation. These three concepts make up the vast majority of alternative cancer therapies. There are even docs feeding cancer patients a high sugar solution then giving them low dose chemo and insulin. The insulin draws the chemo w/the sugar into the cancer cells where they are more effectively treated by the chemo. Check out Max Gerson and The Moss Report for more data.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by drettinger View Post
                      PK,

                      Thanks for taking the time to put all that together - it was helpful. Question: What am I missing here. How did you come up with 75% fat, 25% carb? Thanks in advance
                      This was based on the initial assumption that you were losing 1 lb. of fat per day.

                      Grossly speaking, if you eat at your maintenance level of calories, then you are weight stable. If you under eat, then you will lose weight to the extent of the caloric deficit you've created. But, that lost weight is effectively due to the fact that your fat tissue released some free fatty acids into the blood stream that were subsequently taken up by tissues in order to make up for the overall energy deficit created. Fat is feeding other tissues in your body, and whether that fat came from digestion of meals, or released from adipose tissue makes very little difference to the downstream tissues.

                      With that in mind, if we were to assume fat loss of 1 lb. per day, that would imply that your adipose tissues had supplied that much fat. From the point of view of the free fatty acids circulating around in your blood stream, it is as though you had eaten 3500 calories worth of fat, instead of releasing that amount from adipose tissue. When we add these calories back into what you actually ate, then you have a predominantly fat based diet.

                      -PK
                      My blog : cogitoergoedo.com

                      Interested in Intermittent Fasting? This might help: part 1, part 2, part 3.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by drettinger View Post
                        PK,

                        Thanks for taking the time to put all that together - it was helpful. Question: What am I missing here. How did you come up with 75% fat, 25% carb? Thanks in advance
                        This was based on the initial assumption that you were losing 1 lb. of fat per day.

                        Grossly speaking, if you eat at your maintenance level of calories, then you are weight stable. If you under eat, then you will lose weight to the extent of the caloric deficit you've created. But, that lost weight is effectively due to the fact that your fat tissue released some free fatty acids into the blood stream that were subsequently taken up by tissues in order to make up for the overall energy deficit created. Fat is feeding other tissues in your body, and whether that fat came from digestion of meals, or released from adipose tissue makes very little difference to the downstream tissues.

                        With that in mind, if we were to assume fat loss of 1 lb. per day, that would imply that your adipose tissues had supplied that much fat. From the point of view of the free fatty acids circulating around in your blood stream, it is as though you had eaten 3500 calories worth of fat, instead of releasing that amount from adipose tissue. When we add these calories back into what you actually ate, then you have a predominantly fat based diet.

                        -PK
                        My blog : cogitoergoedo.com

                        Interested in Intermittent Fasting? This might help: part 1, part 2, part 3.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          I've always wanted to try juice fasting but I don't know how to start. Thanks for sharing your experience on your juice fast. It encourage me to give it a try

                          Comment

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