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  • #31
    But... not all people eat due to appetite. An awful lot of people eat for other reasons than their body saying "feed me". I had a piece of chocolate after a very filling dinner- I ate to give myself a pleasure reward. Right now, I want to go walk and get a bagel and coffee- to get out of the office, not because I am hungry.

    http://maggiesfeast.wordpress.com/
    Check out my blog. Hope to share lots of great recipes and ideas!

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Leida View Post
      Actually, it is pretty much my case. I touch sugar, and I am gone. It really, really, really unbalances appetite and mood for me, and gets me unhinged: I stop caring after 1 apple; I binge; I go into dark mood spells as soon as I stop eating sugar/fructose in all forms, but in a few days of horrid withdrawal suddenly everything is great... until I as much as touch sugar again. It is the same as an alcohol to an alcoholic. I mean, you wouldn't tell a chronic alcoholic to have just one shot or to a former drug addict to sniff just one (or whatever you do with the drug of choice), no? It is more complex than just will power, I am pretty sure about it. Food was accepted as a drug by those Ancient Greeks who measured the circumference of Earth. Granted, not as addictive a drug as cocaine

      Ice cream doesn't harm you because you have no 'sweet tooth', i.e. no predisposition to sugar addiction. You can't extend you experience towards those who do have an addiction. I have never touched a drop of alcohol in my life (save for kefir, vanilla extract or kvas, that has some low degree of alcohol in it), so I am not going to venture an opinion on how hard or easy it is to turn down a beer or a glass of a good wine....
      All true, but it sounds like you should probably seek some counseling regarding that. For addiction, I mean. It's just too bizarre for one apple to do that to a person, unless you have some major deficiencies you also need to address. I know of your goals and quests from that Choco thread though, and I think it would help you to talk some of this stuff out. Best of luck.
      I used to seriously post here, now I prefer to troll.

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      • #33
        Originally posted by magnolia1973 View Post
        But... not all people eat due to appetite. An awful lot of people eat for other reasons than their body saying "feed me". I had a piece of chocolate after a very filling dinner- I ate to give myself a pleasure reward. Right now, I want to go walk and get a bagel and coffee- to get out of the office, not because I am hungry.
        Yep, a huge amount of people eat for entertainment or because the food tastes really good and they like it. Here's an example:

        " I'm bored and I'm on break, I guess I'll go get a cup of coffee"

        " Oh, they have fresh baked doughnuts here, I guess I'll grab one since I have some time to kill"

        " That doughnut was great, I think I'll try the chocolate one and then head back to the office"

        That is a very average scenario. Many people see that simply as someone taking a break and grabbing a bite to eat, but the reality of the situation is they took in an extra 600 or more calories from junk food, just to go back and sit at their desk.
        Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who has said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own experience.

        In the mind of the beginner, there are many possibilities; in the mind of the expert, there are few.


        I've shaken hands with a raccoon and lived to tell the tale

        SW: 220- 225 pounds at the beginning of January
        CW: 180 pounds

        Goals for 2012: Lose a bit more fat and start a serious muscle and strength routine

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        • #34
          Well, I trained myself most of the time to just go and enjoy the smell of bakery or cafeteria or hot chocolate, because from experience most of the commercial product tastes far worse than it smells. However, this method doesn't work with fruit or my own baking. On one hand, I think it is messed up to avoid fruit, on another hand I know I am better off for it from experience. So, despite sounding crazy, and breaking my own golden rules gazillion times, I do know that the only sugar I can take is no sugar at all, and yes, fruit makes me fat via screwing with my appetite, mood and leading to binges and chronic overeating. Without sugars, I am full on 1,300 cals a day & happy; with sugars, I have to reign myself in to stick to 1,600 and would go to 1800 without batting an eyelash & every stress and problem calls for eating something sweet.
          Last edited by Leida; 04-19-2012, 08:39 AM.
          My Journal: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread57916.html
          When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be.

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          • #35
            All true, but it sounds like you should probably seek some counseling regarding that. For addiction, I mean. It's just too bizarre for one apple to do that to a person, unless you have some major deficiencies you also need to address. I know of your goals and quests from that Choco thread though, and I think it would help you to talk some of this stuff out. Best of luck.
            Sugar addiction is actually well documented, and I am a classic case. I have a few books on order from the library to try different methods. Those folks who wrote books would know more than a generalist shrink, me thinks.
            My Journal: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread57916.html
            When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be.

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            • #36
              I agree. He doesn't really understand the physiological/emotional/habitual reasons for why people eat the way they do. It's the same old "blame the fatty" for just wanting to be lazy and eat junk food all the time. People are lazy because they get fat. They are not fat because they are lazy. It's easy to point the finger and give reasons for others' failures, especially when you look/feel superior to others, but it doesn't make you correct.

              Originally posted by sbhikes View Post
              I thought it was stupid. Sorry. I can't get on board with this new paleo "all you fatties are fat because you are lazy sloths who eat too much" argument. It's bro-science he's selling.

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              • #37
                After I hiked the last half of the Pacific Crest Trail (1800 mile, 3 month hike, 25-30 miles of hiking a day) I wanted to keep the weight I lost off. Well, let me back up and say on that hike I lost weight, but was already gaining it back before I was done. So I wanted to hopefully keep whatever loss I still had.

                I attempted to do this by eating mostly fruit. Peaches with plain yogurt for breakfast. A daily walk to have a cup of coffee at a downtown coffee shop. Ride my bike to work about 9 miles there and 9 miles back. A whole grapefruit or two for lunch with a half sandwich of almond butter. A regular sometimes meatless dinner. I tried trail running but that made me so starving I found it impossible not to eat everything in sight, so I kept my exercise levels purposefully low and gentle.

                Man the weight piled on so fast I could see a daily change in the mirror.

                So plan B was to let the weight pile on, quit the exercise and hope that whatever was broken inside me would clear up in time, and then once I didn't get ravenous hunger any time I breathed heavy, I would start a low calorie diet and get lots of exercise. It took over a year.

                So, I started up the low calorie diet and exercise. All I did was make myself hungry and crazy.

                What the heck was wrong with me? Why couldn't I just ignore all this hunger and get on with my day? How do these other people exercise and eat tiny meals and not go postal? And man how I hate these skinny people who forget to eat. Who the hell forgets to eat?

                I've always been hungry as far back into childhood as I can remember. I've never been morbidly obese but I have never been skinny. For the last 15 years or so, culminating with the Pacific Crest Trail, I thought I had the answer: increase calories out. I still had to exert some willpower not to eat as much as I wanted, but hey, I maintained a slightly pudgy acceptable body for 15 years just exercising like a maniac. Until it no longer worked.

                Enter LCHF. Hunger gone. Ate much less naturally without trying, without calculating and without exercising. I actually became someone who could forget to eat. Was this calories in/out? Yeah, sure. But the key was the lack of hunger. I finally had the ABILITY to apply calories in/out without having to exert super-human willpower or spend 14 hours a day exercising. My calories were reduced but unlike other calorie-restricted plans I had done in the past, I wasn't thinking about throwing a hair dryer into my tub.

                You all think that people who are overweight are laying on the couch eating candy all day but that is not true.

                What I think is that because so many people like me have found it easy to finally become fairly normal, that now the ones who liked feeling superior to the fatties don't feel so superior. So they're dredging up their old fat and lazy slur to try and look superior again. And since it results in so much traffic to their blogs, now they're all piling on to it. Yay! Rake in that Google Adsense money at the expense of those fat lazy slobs out there!
                Female, 5'3", 50, Max squat: 202.5lbs. Max deadlift: 225 x 3.

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by sbhikes View Post
                  After I hiked the last half of the Pacific Crest Trail (1800 mile, 3 month hike, 25-30 miles of hiking a day) I wanted to keep the weight I lost off. Well, let me back up and say on that hike I lost weight, but was already gaining it back before I was done. So I wanted to hopefully keep whatever loss I still had.

                  I attempted to do this by eating mostly fruit. Peaches with plain yogurt for breakfast. A daily walk to have a cup of coffee at a downtown coffee shop. Ride my bike to work about 9 miles there and 9 miles back. A whole grapefruit or two for lunch with a half sandwich of almond butter. A regular sometimes meatless dinner. I tried trail running but that made me so starving I found it impossible not to eat everything in sight, so I kept my exercise levels purposefully low and gentle.

                  Man the weight piled on so fast I could see a daily change in the mirror.

                  So plan B was to let the weight pile on, quit the exercise and hope that whatever was broken inside me would clear up in time, and then once I didn't get ravenous hunger any time I breathed heavy, I would start a low calorie diet and get lots of exercise. It took over a year.

                  So, I started up the low calorie diet and exercise. All I did was make myself hungry and crazy.

                  What the heck was wrong with me? Why couldn't I just ignore all this hunger and get on with my day? How do these other people exercise and eat tiny meals and not go postal? And man how I hate these skinny people who forget to eat. Who the hell forgets to eat?

                  I've always been hungry as far back into childhood as I can remember. I've never been morbidly obese but I have never been skinny. For the last 15 years or so, culminating with the Pacific Crest Trail, I thought I had the answer: increase calories out. I still had to exert some willpower not to eat as much as I wanted, but hey, I maintained a slightly pudgy acceptable body for 15 years just exercising like a maniac. Until it no longer worked.

                  Enter LCHF. Hunger gone. Ate much less naturally without trying, without calculating and without exercising. I actually became someone who could forget to eat. Was this calories in/out? Yeah, sure. But the key was the lack of hunger. I finally had the ABILITY to apply calories in/out without having to exert super-human willpower or spend 14 hours a day exercising. My calories were reduced but unlike other calorie-restricted plans I had done in the past, I wasn't thinking about throwing a hair dryer into my tub.

                  You all think that people who are overweight are laying on the couch eating candy all day but that is not true.

                  What I think is that because so many people like me have found it easy to finally become fairly normal, that now the ones who liked feeling superior to the fatties don't feel so superior. So they're dredging up their old fat and lazy slur to try and look superior again. And since it results in so much traffic to their blogs, now they're all piling on to it. Yay! Rake in that Google Adsense money at the expense of those fat lazy slobs out there!
                  +1.
                  If you have a problem with what you read: 1. Get a dictionary 2. Don't read it 3. Grow up 4. After 3, go back to 1/ or 2. -- Dennis Blue. | "I don't care about your opinion, only your analysis"- Professor Calabrese. | "Life is more important than _______" - Drew | I eat animals that eat vegetables -- Matt Millen, former NFL Linebacker. | "This country is built on sugar & shit that comes in a box marinated in gluten - abc123

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by smokyjoe View Post
                    I agree. He doesn't really understand the physiological/emotional/habitual reasons for why people eat the way they do.
                    Really? even though I quoted and bolded the part where he most decidedly does? Berkhan is very well read, he knows.

                    Keep in mind that the article is NOT directed at people eating paleo/primal diets. It's aimed at people eating CW.
                    Last edited by iniQuity; 04-19-2012, 09:15 AM.
                    I used to seriously post here, now I prefer to troll.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      sbhikes: Your post is a direct hit. People like me and you are back in the game, and those who piled up accolades while we were on the sidelines are upset about that. Willpower is basically spelled b-u-t-t-e-r, for me.

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by smokyjoe View Post
                        I agree. He doesn't really understand the physiological/emotional/habitual reasons for why people eat the way they do. It's the same old "blame the fatty" for just wanting to be lazy and eat junk food all the time. People are lazy because they get fat. They are not fat because they are lazy. It's easy to point the finger and give reasons for others' failures, especially when you look/feel superior to others, but it doesn't make you correct.
                        You need to familiarize yourself more with Martin Berkhan before you post about what you think he does or doesn't understand.

                        From what I've read Berkhan and Sisson are in line on alot of topics when it comes to health, leanness, lifting heavy things, hormones, cardio..... heck, Mark just finished a 6 part blog on IF where he quoted Martin's protocols. Two guys who think caloric deficits and exercise are necessary for weight loss, both have ~6% body fat... both preach real food consumption. IMO Mark is better with the obese and Martin with people who have gotten below a certain BF %. Just some random thoughts.....

                        .
                        There is a huge difference between talking about how to do something and getting it fucking done.

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                        • #42
                          I REALLY don't think he wrote that to be superior to fat people. I really don't. He wrote it to address the 90% who want to think they are fat because of some weird issue... not because they grab a doughnut when bored. I think its pretty rare to fatten up while hiking miles a day and eating fruit. Most people would drop weight. Good for you that you found a solution. (And you aren't fat, SB Hikes- is your BMI even overweight?) But realize- you are that 10%.

                          Most Americans don't walk 20 minutes a day. I've seen stats that only 50% of Americans exercise regularly. They aren't fat because they are on the PCT hiking 8 hours a day. Someone buys the supersize and other crap foods- or they would not be marketed. If Americans were all eating only good fruit sugars, that is what McDonalds would sell- bananas and mangos. This is a country with endless pasta buffets and those crazy ass breakfasts with pancakes, bacon, eggs, toast AND hashbrowns. People eat that food. We have all worked with the overweight woman who at work eats a salad for lunch, then eats candy all day off her desk and wonders why she is fat when she eats salads. Or the guy who goes to the gym, wonders why he doesn't have a 6 pack, then goes and gets beers and nachos 3 nights a week. Guess what- the slim, fit woman is generally having her salad and skipping the candy dish and the 6 pack guy generally has beer on occasion and skips the nachos. No, its not that easy for everyone- but for most, it is.

                          These scenarios are FAR more common in real life than people who are very active, eat low cal and are fat due to wrong macros.

                          I'm not saying its easy- but for most people the difference between being fit and fat DOES lie in choosing to exercise vs. catching the TV shows. It is in choosing to make your own healthy breakfast vs. grabbing a 400 calorie bagel with a 300 calorie coffee drink. It doesn't come down to avoiding fruits or whatnot for most people.

                          I'm sure for those who are the 10%- with sugar addiction and such, it is a relief to get under control. For me, I feel like adding meat back in and removing grains saved my waistline. But I still have to make good decisions. Just because I stopped eating grains does not mean I can eat a cup of whipped cream and expect to lose weight.

                          http://maggiesfeast.wordpress.com/
                          Check out my blog. Hope to share lots of great recipes and ideas!

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                          • #43
                            I think it's interesting to note that the people who put the most emphasis on calories seem to come from the body building crowd. Anthony Colpo, this guy - both ripped like monsters, both ragging on people for simply being lazy and gluttonous.

                            I think there might be a tiny, insignificant, not quite noticeable element of ego involved here.

                            Maybe. Possibly.

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by magnolia1973 View Post
                              But... not all people eat due to appetite. An awful lot of people eat for other reasons than their body saying "feed me". I had a piece of chocolate after a very filling dinner- I ate to give myself a pleasure reward. Right now, I want to go walk and get a bagel and coffee- to get out of the office, not because I am hungry.
                              Nothing conspicuous to you about bagels, coffee, and chocolate? You don't eat a slice of steak to give yourself a pleasure reward, do you? And you're denying that the desire to eat these things is biochemical in nature?
                              The Champagne of Beards

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by iniQuity View Post
                                Keep in mind that the article is NOT directed at people eating paleo/primal diets. It's aimed at people eating CW.
                                I think that is a good point. Its all about context.

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