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  • #61
    it's not that i have a problem with cold plunges or cold water, or big protein filled breakfasts, or yoking your light sensitivity to some levee terroir in some mystical quilt (okay, lying about that last one), but jack kruse is a joke. a ridiculous sad joke.

    Comment


    • #62
      Originally posted by Clabbergirl View Post
      I've not had any shivering at all, either during or after the bath. Is it not working as well without the shivering?
      Believe it or not, you may have stumbled onto something perfectly fine. There is an actual term "Non-shivering Thermogenesis". It may be better than shivering! Here is an excerpt from a study on NST: NON-SHIVERING THERMOGENESIS AND ITS THERMOREGULATORY SIGNIFICANCE - JANSK[] - 2008 - Biological Reviews - Wiley Online Library

      Summary
      1. Non-shivering thermogenesis (NST) is a heat-production mechanism participating in the chemical thermoregulation of mammals.

      2. NST is additional to shivering and takes place at temperatures close to the thermoneutral zone.

      3. NST occurs in newborn mammals and in those that hibernate. In some adult mammals it can be induced by adaptation to cold.

      4. In small mammals NST produces approximately the same amount of heat as shivering. It becomes less important with increasing body weight of the animals.

      5. NST is regulated by the hypothalamus and it is based predominantly on the calorigenic action of noradrenaline released from sympathetic nerve-endings.

      Participation of other calorigenic substances and of the specific dynamic action of food cannot be excluded.

      6. NST is localized mainly in skeletal muscles and in brown adipose tissue. Small amounts of NST may come from liver, intestine, heart and brain.

      7. The biochemical basis of the calorigenic action of noradrenaline has not yet been fully elucidated.

      Comment


      • #63
        Originally posted by otzi View Post
        I think using CT just for weightloss is fine. It is actually a very effective way to increase 'calories out'. Since everyone here should be eating a paleo diet, even better for CTs ability to perform magic.

        It is obvious everyone who is making fun of this hasn't read any of the links I provided or done any looking beyond their nose. CT is going to explode on the scene in the next few years, I've already heard it mentioned on Dr. Oz and a simple search on Google or better yet, PubMed will show you the science behind this.

        That said, it's not for everybody. My wife would kill me if I turned my house thermostat down to 55.
        HAHAHA... I would join you in your 55 degree house! DH keeps jacking up the thermostat to like 68! I keep turning it down...this is a FIRST in our relationship!!! for the First time in my life I'm hot all the time... I look fwd to my Spot CT sessions after bkfst... and my baths when I can get them in in the evenings after the kiddos have gone to bed.

        Question for those who've been CTing a while - have you seen any changes in your sex drive? mine for a while were all over the place, but insync w/my cycle - now my drive has kinda plateaued... Definitely hormone related... And while I started BHRT I don't think 3days is enough to impact this... any thoughts???
        The most depraved type of human being is the man without a purpose. ~ Ayn Rand
        What's your purpose? Mine is Optimal Health.

        Converted to PB November 2010
        SW 190lb
        Leptin Reset Redux (1Sep 2011) SW 170lbs
        25 Sep 2011 160lbs
        1 Dec 2011 158lbs!
        GW ~135lbs
        5'3"
        Mother of 2, and wife to a kick ass husband...trying to contain chaos and havoc on a daily basis

        My Journal: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread40609.html

        Comment


        • #64
          you didnt say if it is up or down but remember gretch that the first 3 days for me were normal and then i hit the wall bad. anything that required testosterone was DOA for a week.

          after clearing the estrogen flood i am back to two or three a days.

          gotta clear the pipes no matter your gender
          Optimum Health powered by Actualized Self-Knowledge.

          Predator not Prey
          Paleo Ketogenic Lifestyle

          CW 315 | SW 506
          Current Jeans 46 | Starting Jeans 66


          Contact me: quelsen@gmail.com

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by Knifegill View Post
            HOLD IT. This is chronic thermo! Just eat less, folks.
            Knifegill - I don't mind you poking fun at this, because at first, I thought it was a ridiculous concept (get cold=burn 10 more calories) but it is WAY MORE than that. It involves Uncoupling Proteins (UCP-1) which create a huge impact on metabolism, far longer than the time exposed to cold. I encourage you to read up on it. Go to Google Scholar and type in Cold Thermogenesis Obesity. You will find cites like this:PLoS ONE: Human Skeletal Muscle Mitochondrial Uncoupling Is Associated with Cold Induced Adaptive Thermogenesis

            Background
            Mild cold exposure and overfeeding are known to elevate energy expenditure in mammals, including humans. This process is called adaptive thermogenesis. In small animals, adaptive thermogenesis is mainly caused by mitochondrial uncoupling in brown adipose tissue and regulated via the sympathetic nervous system. In humans, skeletal muscle is a candidate tissue, known to account for a large part of the epinephrine-induced increase in energy expenditure. However, mitochondrial uncoupling in skeletal muscle has not extensively been studied in relation to adaptive thermogenesis in humans. Therefore we hypothesized that cold-induced adaptive thermogenesis in humans is accompanied by an increase in mitochondrial uncoupling in skeletal muscle.

            Methodology/Principal Findings
            The metabolic response to mild cold exposure in 11 lean, male subjects was measured in a respiration chamber at baseline and mild cold exposure. Skeletal muscle mitochondrial uncoupling (state 4) was measured in muscle biopsies taken at the end of the respiration chamber stays. Mild cold exposure caused a significant increase in 24h energy expenditure of 2.8% (0.32 MJ/day, range of −0.21 to 1.66 MJ/day, p<0.05). The individual increases in energy expenditure correlated to state 4 respiration (p<0.02, R2 = 0.50).

            Conclusions/Significance
            This study for the first time shows that in humans, skeletal muscle has the intrinsic capacity for cold induced adaptive thermogenesis via mitochondrial uncoupling under physiological conditions. This opens possibilities for mitochondrial uncoupling as an alternative therapeutic target in the treatment of obesity

            Comment


            • #66
              I have a CT question for you guys. I'm just starting, and I'm doing face plunges to acclimate. What should I be shooting for in terms of duration of sessions? Last night my skin was cherry red after three plunges (holding as long as I could hold my breath), and then I did another one, because I'm a little masochistic (kidding...mostly). I know most of you time your cold baths or your icing sessions. Should I be timing my plunge sessions too, or is it just a matter of doing as much as I can stand?

              Unrelated to my question, but totally related to the topic: I used to swim all the time as a kid - cold water, warm water, didn't matter, I was "half fish", as my parents used to say. I still have very vivid memories of the delicious shivery tiredness that hours in the pool or pond would cause. I never really understood it until I started reading about how CT works, then it suddenly all made sense! I'm not sure if it's the inner GEEK in me or the inner KID in me that is more excited about this process.
              --
              Half-assed Primal on and off for a couple years. Started back in earnest in January 2012.
              Leptin Reset started 2/29/12
              5'11" - Female - 32 Y/O
              HW: 410+ SW: 375 CW: 340-ish
              goals acheived thus far: Have ditched high-blood pressure medicine, was able to comfortably fit into a plane seat for my vacation in August 2012.

              Comment


              • #67
                Found an even more awesome study! There is a chart showing the increase in metabolic rate as ambient temp goes down, I couldn't post the graph, but this is the legend just to get you excited... The whole sudy is at: http://journals.cambridge.org/produc...textid=6406180 "Fig. 5. Cold-induced thermogenesis in man; the effect of ambient
                temperature on metabolic rate in naked adult male subjects. Values
                are means for five subjects; the BMR of each subject is set to 100.
                The subjects increased their metabolism by cycling sufficiently on
                an ergometer to avoid goose pimples or shivering. (Adapted after
                Erikson et al.(13).)"
                Last edited by otzi; 03-13-2012, 01:35 PM.

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by quelsen View Post
                  you didnt say if it is up or down but remember gretch that the first 3 days for me were normal and then i hit the wall bad. anything that required testosterone was DOA for a week.

                  after clearing the estrogen flood i am back to two or three a days.

                  gotta clear the pipes no matter your gender
                  Just saw your sig. Regardless of whether it works or not, Kruse is not paleo. He is textbook transhumanism. It's not a value judgement, it's just a matter of accuracy.
                  Lifting Journal

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by Ealachan View Post
                    I have a CT question for you guys. I'm just starting, and I'm doing face plunges to acclimate. What should I be shooting for in terms of duration of sessions? Last night my skin was cherry red after three plunges (holding as long as I could hold my breath), and then I did another one, because I'm a little masochistic (kidding...mostly). I know most of you time your cold baths or your icing sessions. Should I be timing my plunge sessions too, or is it just a matter of doing as much as I can stand?

                    Unrelated to my question, but totally related to the topic: I used to swim all the time as a kid - cold water, warm water, didn't matter, I was "half fish", as my parents used to say. I still have very vivid memories of the delicious shivery tiredness that hours in the pool or pond would cause. I never really understood it until I started reading about how CT works, then it suddenly all made sense! I'm not sure if it's the inner GEEK in me or the inner KID in me that is more excited about this process.
                    I have the same memories of swimming in 'freezing' pond water as a kid in Ohio. As to the face plunges, I don't know that you need to overthink it. It is just meant as an adaptive step to prepare you for full-on cold baths. It activates the 'mammalian dive reflex' which preps your body for what is about to come. It constricts vessels and redirects blood flow among other things. According to this study, 12-40 seconds is enough. Please read more here: The human dive reflex: An experimental, topographical and physiological analysis 10.1016/0031-9384(86)90018-1 : Physiology & Behavior | ScienceDirect.com
                    Last edited by otzi; 03-13-2012, 12:01 PM.

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by Apex Predator View Post
                      Just saw your sig. Regardless of whether it works or not, Kruse is not paleo. He is textbook transhumanism. It's not a value judgement, it's just a matter of accuracy.
                      Neither is Ray Cronise or Wim Hof. But their thoughts on CT only add to the Paleo/Primal experience!

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by quelsen View Post
                        you didnt say if it is up or down but remember gretch that the first 3 days for me were normal and then i hit the wall bad. anything that required testosterone was DOA for a week.

                        after clearing the estrogen flood i am back to two or three a days.

                        gotta clear the pipes no matter your gender
                        Kinda a decrease... from the more recent pattern... hit about a week ago - just kinda staying blah... I figure its part of the detox process... I guess i really need to see how it goes w/the rest of this cycle and into the next.... I Know w/in the 1st 2 wks my hormones were all over the place... right now they're just blah.... but I am HOTTER temp wise now... I'm in a take top/shorts most of the time now at home... I'm finding I'm craving to work out right after my CT spot session mid morning... got to continue dialing in the diet, as well as dial in the parasite/yeast eradication....
                        The most depraved type of human being is the man without a purpose. ~ Ayn Rand
                        What's your purpose? Mine is Optimal Health.

                        Converted to PB November 2010
                        SW 190lb
                        Leptin Reset Redux (1Sep 2011) SW 170lbs
                        25 Sep 2011 160lbs
                        1 Dec 2011 158lbs!
                        GW ~135lbs
                        5'3"
                        Mother of 2, and wife to a kick ass husband...trying to contain chaos and havoc on a daily basis

                        My Journal: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread40609.html

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by otzi View Post
                          I have the same memories of swimming in 'freezing' pond water as a kid in Ohio. As to the face plunges, I don't know that you need to overthink it. It is just meant as an adaptive step to prepare you for full-on cold baths. It activates the 'mammalian dive reflex' which preps your body for what is about to come. It constricts vessels and redirects blood flow among other things. According to this study, 12-40 seconds is enough. Please read more here: The human dive reflex: An experimental, topographical and physiological analysis 10.1016/0031-9384(86)90018-1 : Physiology & Behavior | ScienceDirect.com
                          Thanks very much, Otzi!
                          --
                          Half-assed Primal on and off for a couple years. Started back in earnest in January 2012.
                          Leptin Reset started 2/29/12
                          5'11" - Female - 32 Y/O
                          HW: 410+ SW: 375 CW: 340-ish
                          goals acheived thus far: Have ditched high-blood pressure medicine, was able to comfortably fit into a plane seat for my vacation in August 2012.

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by otzi View Post
                            Neither is Ray Cronise or Wim Hof. But their thoughts on CT only add to the Paleo/Primal experience!
                            I just don't think calling it paleo is appropriate.

                            I could supplement with testosterone and it would make me achieve my goals faster with minimal risk. That doesn't make it paleo.
                            Lifting Journal

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by Apex Predator View Post
                              I just don't think calling it paleo is appropriate.

                              I could supplement with testosterone and it would make me achieve my goals faster with minimal risk. That doesn't make it paleo.
                              It seems to me that CT is uber-paleo! What could be more primal than exposing your body to cold winter temperatures as we evolved in? Even dessert dwellers had to cope with cold nights. With our heated cars, warm clothes, temperature controlled house and workplace, we never experience what the uncoupling proteins and brown fat can do for us. This takes paleo to a new level if you ask me. Please read through this study and tell me what you think. It's an eye-opener! http://journals.cambridge.org/downlo...3d4e84592ebdd3

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Here is another recent study on Brown Fat (BAT). study
                                They used 16 deg C (around 60 degrees F) air temp to activate the BAT, so if you are against ice-cube baths, there may be hope for you!

                                Methods
                                We studied 24 healthy men — 10 who were lean (body-mass index [BMI] [the weight in kilograms divided by the square of the height in meters], <25) and 14 who were overweight or obese (BMI, ≥25) — under thermoneutral conditions (22C) and during mild cold exposure (16C). Putative brown-adipose-tissue activity was determined with the use of integrated 18F-fluorodeoxyglucose positron-emission tomography and computed tomography. Body composition and energy expenditure were measured with the use of dual-energy x-ray absorptiometry and indirect calorimetry.

                                Full Text of Methods...

                                Results
                                Brown-adipose-tissue activity was observed in 23 of the 24 subjects (96%) during cold exposure but not under thermoneutral conditions. The activity was significantly lower in the overweight or obese subjects than in the lean subjects (P=0.007). BMI and percentage of body fat both had significant negative correlations with brown adipose tissue, whereas resting metabolic rate had a significant positive correlation.

                                Full Text of Results...

                                Conclusions
                                The percentage of young men with brown adipose tissue is high, but its activity is reduced in men who are overweight or obese. Brown adipose tissue may be metabolically important in men, and the fact that it is reduced yet present in most overweight or obese subjects may make it a target for the treatment of obesity.

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