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  • Originally posted by SMITHR View Post
    How long did it take you to go from, say 50 degree water, down to 32-35 degrees? I’d like to gauge my progress, make sure I’m not pushing myself too hard.

    I’ve been trying CT for almost 3 weeks, in the 52 degrees/30-40 minutes range. I made the jump a couple of days ago to 45 degrees/40 minutes.

    I thought 7 degrees colder would be no big deal, but it is huge.
    I dabbled in 50-70 degree water for about 2-3 months before I tried 32 degree water.

    If I could start over, I would do 70 degree once, 60 degree once, then 50 degrees about 5 times. After that, I would fill a tub--or cooler--with icecubes and water and stand or sit in it for just a few minutes.

    After experiencing 32 degree water, you will never have to experience anything colder than that (unless you deep sea dive in the antarctic). Now that you know what 32 degree water feels like, you can judge your progress as to when you are brave enough to take a 32 degree soak.

    The first time I did it, I filled the tub with cold water and ice until it was about 35 degrees, I sat as submerged as I could in it for about 10-15 minutes, then pulled the plug and turned on full hot until it got up to 50 degrees, then soaked there for 30 more minutes.

    The next night, I got the water to 32.5 degrees and sat in it for 30 minutes. The 3rd night I did 45 minutes. Since then, I have done 33-35 degrees 7 or 8 times, like every couple weeks just to keep it fresh in my mind.

    What I found in 33 degree water: You don't shiver at all until 20-30 minutes after you are out and dry off. This is because your body shuts off all peripheral blood flow to protect the core organs from hypothermia. When you get out and warm up, the cold blood from your limbs and skin get into your core and induce a shivering response. With 70 degree water, you don't experience vaso-constriction and the cooled blood flows freely to your core causing instant shivering.

    Also, 33 degree water tightens all exposed skin in a way that will blow your mind. Look at your kneecaps when you are in there, they are like leather pads with strange divots and dimples that I still can't quite figure out. Your skin will turn a cheery pink. Fat cells exposed to this temp for very long will literally kill themselves as the fat congeals and destroys itself--this is called apoptosis and occurs at a temperature just above freezing. Temps at freezing or below will kill skin and tissue (frostbite), but temps just above freezing will kill subcutaneous fat. This is how Zetiq works.

    Sorry for the novel...

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    • Originally posted by SMITHR View Post
      How long did it take you to go from, say 50 degree water, down to 32-35 degrees? I’d like to gauge my progress, make sure I’m not pushing myself too hard.

      I’ve been trying CT for almost 3 weeks, in the 52 degrees/30-40 minutes range. I made the jump a couple of days ago to 45 degrees/40 minutes.

      I thought 7 degrees colder would be no big deal, but it is huge.
      You will know.

      when you cant get you rskin temps down below 50 without lowering the temp.

      when you are bored when you think about 50F water.

      Optimum Health powered by Actualized Self-Knowledge.

      Predator not Prey
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      • Originally posted by KA24 View Post
        My reasoning for training afterward is just experimental. I stumbled upon it, like I've posted, after casually picking up some weights about 10 minutes after a CT session (enough time to get out of the tub, let myself air dry and walk downstairs). I picked up the weights and just felt "stronger." I did a few sets of exercises that I generally know my maximum capacity (push-ups) and was able to sustain the exercise with more endurance (in this case, 45 straight push-ups when generally I'm around 35 until failure). This was a big difference in something you don't normally see strength gains with that big of a margin. That is why I have continued these N=1 experiments.

        To really take it seriously, I need to take better record of maximum capacity on certain lifts to failure both before and after CT, and control for factors such as the time of the CT and meals consumed prior. I usually take coconut oil, MCT oil and a high dose of fat before CT, which does cause a thermogenic response but might also contribute to better performance from the direct energy from MCT's post-CT. I ignored this factor at the beginning because I usually use MCT's in some form as a pre-workout, but again, this is very loosely controlled.

        I'd love to see others try this though because I really do think there is a window after CT where I am capable of more work output in the weightroom. If this can be used for additional health benefits in-terms of gaining muscle or getting stronger, a lot more people would be willing to undertake CT.
        A lot of gyms have tubs of 40 degree water for post-workout recovery. Never really heard of anyone doing it before hand, but if it works that's awesome.

        Last winter, I was working out -- treadmill sprints, weighted squats, pushups, pullups -- in an unheated garage around 40 degrees and also doing pullups outside in really cold temps (down to -20F). I notice in those temps, my muscles are really tight, I guess from the body trying to keep warm. I posted some personal best pullups that I haven't matched since in frigid temps. So, there is probably merit to what you are doing. I've heard Lance Armstrong rides a stationary bike in a walk-in freezer to train. But that may be BS.

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        • Originally posted by quelsen View Post
          You will know.

          when you cant get you rskin temps down below 50 without lowering the temp.

          when you are bored when you think about 50F water.
          Dead-on! I had to wean myself off the 32 degree water because it's so addicting. Definitely won't get bored and actually get a adrenalin rush just thinking about it. As the tub fills and the thermometer starts showing 30's, it's like standing on the edge of a bridge getting ready to bungee jump.

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          • Originally posted by otzi View Post
            Dead-on! I had to wean myself off the 32 degree water because it's so addicting. Definitely won't get bored and actually get a adrenalin rush just thinking about it. As the tub fills and the thermometer starts showing 30's, it's like standing on the edge of a bridge getting ready to bungee jump.
            I feel like i am being lazy if there isnt ice before i get in and after i get out.

            if the water was around 50 i think i wasted the water.
            Optimum Health powered by Actualized Self-Knowledge.

            Predator not Prey
            Paleo Ketogenic Lifestyle

            CW 315 | SW 506
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            • Originally posted by quelsen View Post
              I feel like i am being lazy if there isnt ice before i get in and after i get out.

              if the water was around 50 i think i wasted the water.
              What are your experiences with shivering while using really cold water?

              Comment


              • Originally posted by MightyAl View Post
                It is time to put down the Kool-aid. Mark didn't say anything about temperature for CT. The study he cited used 61 degree temps. As far as I can tell Mark has little to no personal experience with CT. Mark did some reading pulled some studies and put together a well thought out blog post that has no real world results in it. Take it as some good source information but the article was little more then that.

                On this topic you have no idea if more is not better.
                I couldn't agree more. And I have no "kool-aid factor" when it comes to Mark. I was only citing his write up about it because otzi waved it in my face as the ultimate "I told you so" proof (only half jokingly ). No, I don't know if more is better but until I see some results that do say so, ice baths seem extreme *to me*.

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                • Originally posted by otzi View Post
                  I had to wean myself off the 32 degree water because it's so addicting. Definitely won't get bored and actually get a adrenalin rush just thinking about it. As the tub fills and the thermometer starts showing 30's, it's like standing on the edge of a bridge getting ready to bungee jump.
                  Does no one else understand why this statement should make sane people concerned?

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                  • Originally posted by Paleobird View Post
                    I couldn't agree more. And I have no "kool-aid factor" when it comes to Mark. I was only citing his write up about it because otzi waved it in my face as the ultimate "I told you so" proof (only half jokingly ). No, I don't know if more is better but until I see some results that do say so, ice baths seem extreme *to me*.
                    Well I would direct you over to Ray Cronise but his website has a lot of theoretical information and very little practical application which is very confusing for a site that promotes CT. I am on board with ice baths being out there and questionable in practicality or common sense. I can get cold enough to shiver with just tap water in the shower. From my understanding cold adaptation is anything that forces a response is good enough. Then of course is the spot icing for adipose tissue apoptosis. So many unknowns with all of this.
                    Check out my primal blog: http://primalroar.posterous.com/

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                    • Originally posted by MightyAl View Post
                      Well I would direct you over to Ray Cronise but his website has a lot of theoretical information and very little practical application which is very confusing for a site that promotes CT. I am on board with ice baths being out there and questionable in practicality or common sense. I can get cold enough to shiver with just tap water in the shower. From my understanding cold adaptation is anything that forces a response is good enough. Then of course is the spot icing for adipose tissue apoptosis. So many unknowns with all of this.
                      Kind of like the PB 'Laws' ie., Vegetable Oil is Bad; Grains are Bad; etc... The things I am convinced that are factual and well-studied concerning cold are:

                      1. Temperatures below thermoneutral (approx 68 deg air or 90 deg water) activate BAT.
                      2. Chronic exposure to these temperatures promote recruitment of new BAT
                      3. Temperatures that don't cause shivering are best when BAT is your primary concern.
                      4. Anti-inflammatory/muscle recovery effects of cold are best seen in extremely cold water.
                      5. Fat apoptosis occurs between 33-35 degrees.


                      The term cold-thermogenesis really only pertains to the body generating heat in response to a cold stimulus. The 32 degree soaks aren't really a part of cold-thermogenesis, although I feel it aids in BAT growth and recruitment. I think it's real benefit is fat cell destruction and systemic anti-inflammatory actions.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Paleobird View Post
                        Does no one else understand why this statement should make sane people concerned?
                        Hey, it concerns me, too and I'm not even sane! You really need to try it. Do this: Fill a big cooler with a couple bags of ice and water. Stir it around. Stand in it. A normal, non-cold adapted person would take a deep gasping breath, your heartrate will slow, you will feel intense pain in your ankles. After a few minutes, the pain will ease and your feet will become numb as blood circulation is restricted. Also during this time, your growth hormone levels will drop, your blood pressure will increase, and your norephinephrine level will rise. A person who has done this a few times will have none of these reactions.

                        Stay in for 10-15 minutes, when you get out your feet will be stiff and partly numb. In a few minutes the circulation returns and your feet feel great.

                        After you do that, it will be very hard for you not to wonder what a whole body submersion in this ice water would feel like.

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                        • Originally posted by otzi View Post
                          Hey, it concerns me, too and I'm not even sane! You really need to try it. Do this: Fill a big cooler with a couple bags of ice and water. Stir it around. Stand in it. A normal, non-cold adapted person would take a deep gasping breath, your heartrate will slow, you will feel intense pain in your ankles. After a few minutes, the pain will ease and your feet will become numb as blood circulation is restricted. Also during this time, your growth hormone levels will drop, your blood pressure will increase, and your norephinephrine level will rise. A person who has done this a few times will have none of these reactions.

                          Stay in for 10-15 minutes, when you get out your feet will be stiff and partly numb. In a few minutes the circulation returns and your feet feel great.

                          After you do that, it will be very hard for you not to wonder what a whole body submersion in this ice water would feel like.
                          Umm... ok. BULLSHIT>

                          I used to have to do cold therapy for an injury.
                          Leg submerged to above knee.
                          It was just as cold, gasp inducing, numbing, and freaking PAINFUL the 100th* time as it was the first.
                          *estimate... it was 5 times a week for several months. I don't know the exact number of exposures.

                          The warming up after ward did not feel "great". It was freaking miserable.

                          Good lord.
                          “You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist.”
                          ~Friedrich Nietzsche
                          And that's why I'm here eating HFLC Primal/Paleo.

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                          • I grew up in NH where going to the beach was a freezing water event in the summertime.

                            People dealt with the water in 2 ways: 1, in the way otzi (sort of) describes above, standing in it and letting it numb your feet/ankles, then slowly wading in; or 2, completely submerging yourself in one go so you can get used to it faster.

                            I preferred 2, since you got the shock of it over quickly and then the water became bearable and even warm after a while! Which now I understand the reason for that.

                            ---

                            I've been doing cold showers lately, which is actually more of a pleasant experience since I live in south Florida and our bathroom has no AC vent, and a window that doesn't close fully, so it's usually quite humid in there. I haven't noticed any fat loss that I can attribute to the showers, however my skin is noticeably softer! I love it.

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                            • What I found in 33 degree water: You don't shiver at all until 20-30 minutes after you are out and dry off. This is because your body shuts off all peripheral blood flow to protect the core organs from hypothermia. When you get out and warm up, the cold blood from your limbs and skin get into your core and induce a shivering response. With 70 degree water, you don't experience vaso-constriction and the cooled blood flows freely to your core causing instant shivering.
                              Thanks for the great explanation of what is happening. You're describing exactly my experience with 50F water when I was used to 65. I shivered a LOT in 62-70F water, but get warm right away in 50F, but literally feel the cold creeping up my arms to my core after I get out and I shiver a bit for about 20m.

                              Originally posted by cori93437 View Post
                              Leg submerged to above knee.
                              It was just as cold, gasp inducing, numbing, and freaking PAINFUL the 100th* time as it was the first.
                              *estimate... it was 5 times a week for several months. I don't know the exact number of exposures.

                              The warming up after ward did not feel "great". It was freaking miserable.
                              Interesting,, b/c my experience first with 62F water, then with 50F, was how wonderful my body, and especially my legs (which were submerged longer than anything else just by default), felt after cold immersion.

                              The colder, the better it feels afterward.

                              I'm going to take a stab at a possible explanation - at the time you had to do the rehab, your omega 6:3 ratios were probably pretty high?
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                              • Originally posted by cori93437 View Post
                                Umm... ok. BULLSHIT>
                                That's cool. I know it's a hard sell. Quelson will probably chime in, too. The body actually changes in response to chronic cold. We are accustomed to fear cold water because..it..can...kill..you. Many, many studies prove that this response can be habituated and acclimated to. I know most people don't click links, but here is a good study they did to monitor people's response to a repeated cold stimulus, read if you like: Habituation of thermal sensations, skin temperatures, and norepinephrine in men exposed to cold air

                                The gist is this: "We studied habituation processes by exposing healthy men to cold air (2 h in a 10°C room) daily for 11 days. During the repeated cold exposures, the general cold sensations and those of hand and foot became habituated so that they were already significantly less intense after the first exposure and remained habituated to the end of the experiment. The decreases in skin temperatures and increases in systolic blood pressure became habituated after four to six exposures. The increase in norepinephrine response became reduced on days 5 and 10 and that of proteins on day 10, suggesting that the sympathetic nervous system became habituated and hemoconcentration became attenuated. Thus repeated cold-air exposures lead to habituations of cold sensation and norepinephrine response and to attenuation of hemoconcentration, which provide certain benefits to those humans who have to stay and work in cold environments."

                                This study didn't take diet into consideration and was N=6, but a pretty good study nonetheless IMO.

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