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  • Yeahright. Kruse is building a fan base to sell stuff. He is not doing this as a public service.
    Good for him.
    If he has put in the time and effort to gain knowledge that we can benefit from, he deserves to be compensated for the time and effort he put in.
    Or would we rather him, and everyone like him, make that sacrifice for us, without any expectation of financial gain?

    If there is any value in the info that he shares, he deserves to make a heap load of money from everyone that benefits from the time and money he sacrificed to make himself of use to his fellow man.
    "Your actions speak to me so loud, I can not hear a single word you are saying."

    Comment


    • Originally posted by otzi View Post
      The ONLY reason I'm keeping up with this thread is to find out if using cold is going to be worth it in the long run.

      Cold Thermogenesis is getting a lot of attention right now, people are interested in it. If people start posting here that they tried it and it failed their expectations miserably, then I will pay attention to that. If people try it and say they broke a stall, had detox symptoms, have better recovery, lose more weight, etc... it will be great, too.

      I only do things that fit my life. So far I've found things that work for me and I can keep up with them for the foreseeable future, these things are:

      Primal Blueprint Eating
      Intermittant Fasting
      Daily pullups, pushups, squats, and 3-5 miles of walking
      Weekly sprints
      Minimal Supplements (Vit D, K2, Krill Oil, Resveratrol)
      Cold Exposure (cold baths, cold showers, cool work/home environment, cool swims)
      Good! Like it!

      Originally posted by Apex Predator View Post
      Second, what do people think of Mark's refution(essentially) of Kruse? Between the last post, and the one today, he seems to be criticizing him as much as he does anyone.
      If you go to the first and search on my username, you can see my responses there. For today's, well it was long and I was't bored enough to read the whole thing, lol, but I don't think it's aimed at Kruse, per se, so much as ideas like
      - failure to differentiate between improvements on avg lifespan and max lifespan
      - fooling with the telomere lengths themselves, directly
      - failure to understand that telomere length is an indicator of health, not necessarily a direct cause itself

      Certainly Kruse has been pushing telomere testing, but not directly meddling with them, & not so much to extend max possible lifespan as max years of healthy living (who wants to live to 180 if you still start wetting your pants at 65?).

      Originally posted by otzi View Post
      Kruse is putting stuff out there that is pretty wild. I can see why Sisson and others would want to put some distance beween themselves and Kruse.
      Agree!
      Originally posted by otzi
      Sisson is all about diet, exercise, vanity, health, and selling books&products while Kruse wants to change the way medicine is practiced in the world and end all disease of modern civilization.
      Disagree! (as if you should care, lol)
      Originally posted by Paleobird View Post
      Yeahright. Kruse is building a fan base to sell stuff. He is not doing this as a public service.
      Mark is totally upfront about selling supplements is how he makes his money. He hasn't made a dime off of me.
      Neither Sisson nor Kruse have made a dime off me. I feel kinda bad about it, actually. They've both made huge differences in my life that no amount of money was ever able to do before.

      In fact, after my last pregnancy 3 years ago, I said to dh that I was setting aside $2000 to fix my sugar (and hence, weight) problem in the next year. I never had to spend any of it because I found MDA. And when I was still fighting the sugar problem on a MUCH lower level a few years later and the LR fixed it, the only money I ever spent was on some labs that uncovered serious gluten-caused damage that has subsequently made a huge change in how I view "moderation" for myself, and life-changing improvements in health since then.
      5'4" 39yo mother to five sweeties & married to their AMAZING DaddyGrok
      Current Weight: 175lb__________________________________Goal: 135lb
      Deadlift: 240lb________________________________________Back Squat: 165lb
      Bench: 130lb__________________________________________Pre ss: 85lb
      ***Winning a 20-year war against binge eating disorder***

      Comment


      • Originally posted by MamaGrok View Post
        Okay, so exactly two years after I started PB, magically it kicked in and started melting my belly fat away. LOL. (BTW, I was losing .5lb/wk before the LR, .5lb/wk after the LR, and slightly less than .5lb/wk since starting CT (llikely simply b/c I'm close to my goal) ... I was burning fat all along, just not those that are so specifically harbingers of metabolic and/or hormonal derangement).)
        You are close to your goal and your metabolism is back on a stable footing. (Yay!) Of course you are losing those last few holdout fat pockets. What would be an interesting study is if we could clone you and have one of you use the ice pack and the other one just continue with Primal. See I'm just trying to separate out the confounding variables. BTW, you are rocking that tennis outfit.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by otzi View Post
          Your 4000+ posts have a positive impact on his website ratings! So, though you may not have spent any money--he relies on people like you to increase the traffic to this site. Website advertisers pay by the volume on the site.
          A valid point but running a website is expensive and he doesn't really have many advertisers here except selling his Primal Fuel and stuff. I don't think the website is paying for the house in Malibu. I think it's the supplements and he even says as much. Granted the website is good for building his fan base too. I just took exception to Dr, K being held up as some kind of saint doing this for humanity while Mark was being characterized as just in it for the money.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Paleobird View Post
            You are close to your goal and your metabolism is back on a stable footing. (Yay!) Of course you are losing those last few holdout fat pockets. What would be an interesting study is if we could clone you and have one of you use the ice pack and the other one just continue with Primal. See I'm just trying to separate out the confounding variables. BTW, you are rocking that tennis outfit.
            I think you should just zeltiq one side of your body and not the other and see what happens. For science.

            It's my high school varsity cheerleading outfit, btw! Don't think I'm not proud of that one, lol!

            My point in stating my weight loss is that my metabolism never seems to have been screwed, except perhaps by allocating excess calories to storage rather than movement *before* I went primal two years ago. My weight loss was consistent from the time I started primal all the way till now. It's only *where* I'm losing that has changed in the last 1/8 of that two year time frame since starting the ice. It had been consistently all-over, *except* for the belly, until now, never one place more than another.

            But again, only n=1 could convince you, since no one's exactly running out there to conduct clinical studies. But you've already done an AMAZING job of reaching your goals, so I'm not expecting that to happen. And I don't need anyone else to be convinced, anyway. Just let us continue on our merry way. I'll start icing just one side now and see what happens.
            5'4" 39yo mother to five sweeties & married to their AMAZING DaddyGrok
            Current Weight: 175lb__________________________________Goal: 135lb
            Deadlift: 240lb________________________________________Back Squat: 165lb
            Bench: 130lb__________________________________________Pre ss: 85lb
            ***Winning a 20-year war against binge eating disorder***

            Comment


            • I would be interested to hear the results of that experiment.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Paleobird View Post
                But this is exactly what I am talking about. You went Primal but are attributing the benefits to the CT. My blood pressure and weight both came down quite dramatically too just with going Primal. You have had a few months for Primal living to start cleaning out your system and heal your metabolism.

                I think it's great that you are getting less medicated. I did this too by going Primal as did my Dad.

                As to someone making a buck off it, cool (pun intended). But if the people making a buck off it are only quoting each other and the real scientific data just isn't there, I remain skeptical (and comfortably warm).

                But you all have fun. Whatever floats yer boat.
                Paleobird,

                My weight loss has been in four ways. 1st from my high of 273 down to 250ish mark was just me trying to get my act together. 2nd from the 250ish down to 239 was post-stroke and SAD high carb=low fat, as directed in and out of the hospital. I added a higher protein load. 3rd was PB after I found it last Christmas. It took me down to 230ish where I had been stalled since the first of March. And finally the fourth installment was after I got into the cold showers. Around the last third of April, I had started trying CT in the shower. The first week of May, I started whole weight training at therapy.

                A point that I need to make, since my stroke, my muscle tone and strength has gone to crap. I 'run' on the treadmill at .7 mph. I had a brainstem stroke. They typically save the mind but paralyze some part of the body. I surprised my therapists at the hospital with my drive and subsequent recovery. Maybe they were being nice to me, but I saw people with strokes much worse than me. I am left trying to make my left leg operate like normal.

                So, I cannot attribute much weight loss to exercise. And after I read Otzi's (I believe) how people who have stalled on PB, were able to rweight losseir weightloss, I thought "What the heck, it is free, I'll give it a try." So I started with face dunks and moved to the shower. I have tried one bath in my big tub, but it was hard for me to get in and out. So far, I am pleased and because of the plateau I hit, can attribute part of my weight loss directly to CT. The speed my blood pressure moved down after I started CT, I think points that benefit in the CT column, also. Same kind of thing has happened with my fasting blood glucose. I have the charts on pressure and FBG that show the levels. I had read where FBG rose a little first then settles down to a lower point. I behappeningt is happwning to me now,

                Another factor to consider is my actual diet. Because I have a sister who has become quite obese, I wanted to find out if it would work for her, so I 'dirtied' up my diet. I still follow PB, but eat some more carbs (chips, cookies, and a few spoonfuls of ice crweight lossl the weightloss occurs. I like it so much, I am starting to get preachy and my one daughter yells at me.

                Give it a try.
                Learning the intricacies of healthy eating and nourishing my body the right way.
                I am not bald, that is a Vitamin D collector. Time to Grok and Roll!
                Eased into a primal diet starting at Christmas 2011. Goal weight - 205 started: 240 pounds waist 40, now 227 pounds and waist 38 Summer 2012 - weight =215 and waist is actually still 39"
                ljbprrfmof = LJ = Little John = John

                Comment


                • [QUOTE=ljbprrfmof;848800]
                  The speed my blood pressure moved down after I started CT, I think points that benefit in the CT column, also. Same kind of thing has happened with my fasting blood glucose. I have the charts on pressure and FBG that show the levels. I had read where FBG rose a little first then settles down to a lower point. I behappeningt is happwning to me now,
                  [QUOTE]

                  Wow, I didn't realize you were going through so much. If I were in your shoes, I'd be hitting CT hard and eating really clean paleo, possibly even ketogenic with tons of seafood. Here is a study youu may find interesting: Habituation of thermal sensations, skin temperatures, and norepinephrine in men exposed to cold air

                  An excerpt: " It is generally accepted that a single, short-time exposure to cold air results in increased systolic and diastolic blood pressure and, by a reflex mechanism, in a decreased heart rate (12, 20, 29). Similar findings were made in the present study. The systolic blood pressure increased significantly during the first 5 min in the cold, whereas the diastolic blood pressure rose at the end of the 120-min cold exposure. Some earlier studies have demonstrated a gradual decrease in blood pressure and heart rate responses to repeated experimental cold stimuli (7, 11). We observed a significant reduction in the systolic blood pressure on days 4 and 6 only at time point 60 min but no significant changes in the diastolic blood pressure at any time point. We had heart rate recordings available from days 0, 1,5, and 10 and observed that they were similarly decreased on days 0, 1, 5, and10. The general picture of the systolic blood pressure responses to repeated cold-air exposures follows those seen in other parameters, i.e., habituation within 4–6 days and loss of habituation after that. It can be stated that cardiovascular responses to repeated cold exposures are advantageous because the decreases in systolic blood pressure (days 4 and 6) and heart rate (days 0, 1, 5, and 10) indicate a reduced oxygen demand of the heart.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Paleobird View Post
                    I would be interested to hear the results of that experiment.
                    It's been done. Cryolipolysis Offers Results for Fat Removal*:*Skin & Allergy News

                    "Naples, Fla. - Effective, noninvasive fat removal is here, according to Dr. Mathew Avram.

                    "Efficacy is limited but it is real," he said regarding cryolipolysis, a noninvasive cooling and removal of subcutaneous fat.

                    It is important for dermatologists to assess all emerging noninvasive fat-reduction technologies critically.

                    "Patients will ask you about this," Dr. Avram said. "There is a lot of snake-oil salesmanship in this field."

                    Cryolipolysis (CoolSculpting, Zeltiq Aesthetics) selectively kills fat cells at temperatures above freezing without affecting surrounding tissues. This selective crystallization of fat cells leads to apoptotic death and, ultimately, gradual dissolution of fat over 2-4 months, Dr. Avram said.

                    In 2009, researchers reported a 22% reduction in "love handles" on the side treated with cryolipolysis, compared with the side with no treatment at 4 months in an unpublished study with 32 participants.

                    "Whether or not that is clinically relevant is up to you to decide," Dr. Avram said at the meeting.

                    Results of animal studies are more robust. For example, one study conducted by researchers at the Wellman Center for Photomedicine in Boston demonstrated a 40% decrease in fat layer of pigs over 90 days on ultrasound and gross pathology (Laser Surg. Med. 2008;40:595-604).

                    Cryolipolysis has been approved by the Food and Drug Administration for various skin cooling applications during dermatology procedures, but the CoolSculpting device is not FDA cleared for marketing as a fat removal device, Dr. Avram said, although regulatory approval for noninvasive fat reduction is pending.

                    Cryolipolysis is not a weight loss device, nor is it intended as a replacement for liposuction, said Dr. Avram, director of the Massachusetts General Hospital Dermatology Laser and Cosmetic Center.

                    Cryolipolysis is best suited for local fat removal in areas resistant to exercise, such as love handles or the lower abdomen, Dr. Avram said, and "patient selection is crucial." Relatively thin, weight-stable people who have localized fat areas and realistic expectations are appropriate candidates. "Otherwise, patients will be disappointed. We avoid that with very careful patient selection," he said.

                    "We got this device at Mass General a few months ago," said Dr. Avram, who tried it himself.

                    Dr. R. Rox Anderson applied the gel sheet "over my love handle area [and] left it on for an hour," he said, noting that it got a little cold and the area became anesthetized after 7-8 minutes.

                    He reported a minor urticarial plaque on the area immediately after treatment. Redness for a few minutes to a few hours is a common postprocedure effect, as is bruising for up to a few weeks, although "not all will get it," Dr. Avram said.

                    A temporary dulling of sensation in the treated area that typically resolves in 1-8 weeks can also occur. No changes in pigmentation have been reported.

                    Dermatologists are the perfect physicians to perform cryolipolysis, Dr. Avram said. "Subcutaneous fat is a fundamental part of dermatology, and the fact that it has not been claimed by any specialty makes it ours."

                    Comment


                    • Here is the patent application for a home-use device to "remove heat from subcutaneous lipid rich cells" by the company Zeltiq. Basically a way to kill fat cells with temps that don't kill skin and tissue.

                      Patent US20110238051 - HOME-USE APPLICATORS FOR NON-INVASIVELY REMOVING HEAT FROM SUBCUTANEOUS ... - Google Patents

                      People will happily shell out thousands for this while Mommagrok laughs her ass off!

                      Comment


                      • you are right

                        thats Great thanks

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by otzi View Post
                          Here is the patent application for a home-use device to "remove heat from subcutaneous lipid rich cells" by the company Zeltiq. Basically a way to kill fat cells with temps that don't kill skin and tissue.

                          Patent US20110238051 - HOME-USE APPLICATORS FOR NON-INVASIVELY REMOVING HEAT FROM SUBCUTANEOUS ... - Google Patents

                          People will happily shell out thousands for this while Mommagrok laughs her ass off!
                          I was reading in some of these links on cryliposys that the patentented 'Zeliq' method uses gel pads set to a 'special' temperature to prevent skin/tissue damage. While I think this is just marketing to keep people from realizing they can do this at home with some $0.99 freezer packs, it did get me wondering if there is the slightest chance that using regular freezer packs directly on skin could possiblly cause some damage. I've been doing it now for close to a week without seeing any negative affects, so I probaby answered my own question, but does anyone know if there's a time limit or a temperature limit for prevventing damage other than to the fat cells?
                          Last edited by BestBetter; 05-31-2012, 05:33 AM.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by otzi View Post
                            In 2009, researchers reported a 22% reduction in "love handles" on the side treated with cryolipolysis, compared with the side with no treatment at 4 months in an unpublished study with 32 participants.
                            Thanks for sparing me from having just one unsightly love handle!


                            Yes, you CAN do skin damage with freezer packs, although it's unlikely to progress beyond the cold equivalent of sunburn since you're likely to notice it before it does.

                            As Kruse mentions, always check skin color periodically. It should be pink or red, not turning white. If it does turn white (or feel papery, etc.), stop the application immediately, gently warm it (like with your hand), and lay off that area for a week. IOW, much like how you would treat skin that has been sunburned. I mention this b/c a lot of people panic when this happens. No, this IS NOT frostbite anymore than a mild or even painful sunburn is likely to destroy your skin forever the way a third degree burn could. There is a scale of damage, and if you pay attention to the warning signs (skin color, pain...) you will be hard-pressed to move to anything anywhere remotely approaching permanent damage.)

                            Also, for some reason, alcohol packs (the flexible ones) seem to cause freezer burn more easily. Maybe it's the increased surface area contact?

                            And as always with ice packs for any reason, put a cloth between you and the pack, at least the first few days, and perhaps the first few minutes of each additional session, with any given spot. (I had gotten used to doing without cloth on my belly, and put a pack on my hip, forgetting it wasn't accustomed to spot icing yet, and got paper skin pretty fast, which turned into a bruise a day later and took a few days to recover fully ... again, much like sunburn.)
                            5'4" 39yo mother to five sweeties & married to their AMAZING DaddyGrok
                            Current Weight: 175lb__________________________________Goal: 135lb
                            Deadlift: 240lb________________________________________Back Squat: 165lb
                            Bench: 130lb__________________________________________Pre ss: 85lb
                            ***Winning a 20-year war against binge eating disorder***

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by BestBetter View Post
                              I was reading in some of these links on cryliposys that the patentented 'Zeliq' method uses gel pads set to a 'special' temperature to prevent skin/tissue damage. While I think this is just marketing to keep people from realizing they can do this at home with some $0.99 freezer packs, it did get me wondering if there is the slightest chance that using regular freezer packs directly on skin could possiblly cause some damage. I've been doing it now for close to a week without seeing any negative affects, so I probaby answered my own question, but does anyone know if there's a time limit or a temperature limit for prevventing damage other than to the fat cells?
                              I really liked using large ziplock bags filled with ice cubes and a little water. This seemed to keep the temperature a steady 33-35 degrees. I left it in one area for 20-30 minutes at a time and never had any problems with frostbite. I think the freezer packs are capable of getting much colder and you'll need a buffer between them and the skin.

                              I iced my belly daily for about 2 weeks in March. When I started my waist measurement was 35". After 2 weeks, my waist measurement was still 35", maybe even a little more, but within 6 weeks I was down to 33". Now, about 10 weeks later, I seem to have stabilized at 32". I plan on doing it again later this summer.

                              What happens is that you actually damage the fat cell to the point that it kills itself and is slowly absorbed into the body. Sounds like BS, but Zeltiq knows it and is getting rich. Fat cells freeze at a warmer temperature than skin and tissue, and once they freeze and undergo apoptosis, they are gone forever. Dieting alone only shrinks the fat cells who then lurk in the shadows waiting for those 'cheat days' to fill up.
                              Last edited by otzi; 05-31-2012, 08:03 AM.

                              Comment


                              • Redemption!

                                Is Brown Fat Good For You? | Mark's Daily Apple

                                Hey, Paleobird - Are you a believer now? (sorry, couldn't resist)

                                "Humans, even those living in cold climates, are rarely exposed to the cold weather. They sleep in heated homes, drive in heated cars, shop in heated department stores, and bundle up with multiple layers for those fleeting moments spent outdoors. It’s even been proposed that the advent of central heating is related to obesity. I suspect that the total amount of human BAT also depends on chronic exposure to cold, especially since one study (PDF) showed that outdoor workers have more BAT than indoor workers. Acute exposure activates, chronic exposure creates." - Mark Sisson
                                Last edited by otzi; 05-31-2012, 08:36 AM.

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