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  • Originally posted by David166
    Kruse is an insane person. Almost nothing in that post above by him makes any actual sense. He is just spouting words like "primordial" and acting like that has a real prescriptive meaning.
    Jack Kruse is a neurosurgeon and medical researcher.

    Comment


    • Otzi.

      Follow Jack on facebook, he posted a video today of a Russian mom taking her infant into a hole, cut in the ice of a lake. Pretty neat.

      When I CT in the shower, my teeth are not chatering but my arms and legs shake. Should I warm up my water?

      LJ
      Learning the intricacies of healthy eating and nourishing my body the right way.
      I am not bald, that is a Vitamin D collector. Time to Grok and Roll!
      Eased into a primal diet starting at Christmas 2011. Goal weight - 205 started: 240 pounds waist 40, now 227 pounds and waist 38 Summer 2012 - weight =215 and waist is actually still 39"
      ljbprrfmof = LJ = Little John = John

      Comment


      • Originally posted by fiercehunter View Post
        I'm wondering about CT in the summer- do people ice themselves when it's hot outside?
        Good question! Check this out: Vasper Systems, LLC. - Home

        Vasper is the latest thing to hit the scene, basically it's a compression suit with cold water running through it. Supposedly if you wear it while working out, you can get the benefits of something like 1 hour workout in 20 minutes. It was invented by NASA for the astronauts, I believe and recently found a commercial use.

        But normal people? Like me? I probably won't. I like to think of CT as a seasonal tool. Our ancestors had to face a winter without central heating and warm cars, why shouldn't we? If I get the chance to swim in a cold river or lake, I will take it, but targeted daily CT--nah.

        Could you? Certainly! I'm sure many people do it all year long.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by ljbprrfmof View Post
          Otzi.

          Follow Jack on facebook, he posted a video today of a Russian mom taking her infant into a hole, cut in the ice of a lake. Pretty neat.

          When I CT in the shower, my teeth are not chatering but my arms and legs shake. Should I warm up my water?

          LJ
          I'm not much of a Facebook'er, but Jack is really into CT for sure.

          My advice on the water temp of your shower, I'd warm it up a little and maybe get it as cold as you can right towards the end. Once you start shivering, the BAT turns off as the muscles take over warming the body. That has been confirmed by many studies.

          Looking at your signature line, you look about the same as Ray Cronise. Have you checked out his website Thermogenex - Fuel the Burn ? He has some excellent ideas to shred fat fast. Dr. Kruse is more into longevity, but if your main goal this summer is fat loss, I'd give Ray a look and eat a clean primal diet. The first thing Ray will tell you is you should swim in cool water (80 degrees) if you possibly can and don't eat for 2-3 hours after your swim...this will shred fat faster than any program out there.

          Another thing to ponder, if you are doing the daily cold showers, you can get by on way fewer calories than you'd imagine without feeling hungry and wasting muscle. If you aren't fasting, give it a try. Eat a regular supper, then the next day skip breakfast, lunch and dinner. Eat a regular breakfast after that. That's about a 36 hour fast, just like Mark Sisson recommends, but with no hunger pains. That's a benefit of the cold! Ray Cronise eats mainly stir-fry vegetables in mass quantity with no added fat or meat and says he feels great. I've been trying to pin him down on calories, but he doesn't like to talk calories.

          Comment


          • So I read through this entire thread yesterday (turning on my fan and directing a cool breeze at myself about 3 posts in) and took a cold shower after my LHT. I have always loved jumping into the glacier fed lakes in the summer and feel revived after doing it. I lived in Sweden and swam in the artic ocean while I was there. So why not try cold showers. IT WAS GREAT! I started out with a cool shower and then just continued to adjust the temperature down. I always hurry through hot showers (always feel dry afterwards) and have never enjoyed hot tubs, but I ended up staying in there for about 30 minutes rinsing my hair scrubbing with my scrubby gloves (no soap at all) and came out feeling refreshed and the most clean I have ever felt! My skin looks fantastic! So guess what I did it again this morning, amazing! Maybe I'm weird but I am digging this for the feeling I get alone, if it helps burn extra calories, so be it, but I like the way it makes me feel.

            Comment


            • Thanks Otzi!

              I have noticed that my muscles seem to be 'shivering' for an hour or two after the cool shower. Does anybody else notice this?
              Learning the intricacies of healthy eating and nourishing my body the right way.
              I am not bald, that is a Vitamin D collector. Time to Grok and Roll!
              Eased into a primal diet starting at Christmas 2011. Goal weight - 205 started: 240 pounds waist 40, now 227 pounds and waist 38 Summer 2012 - weight =215 and waist is actually still 39"
              ljbprrfmof = LJ = Little John = John

              Comment


              • Originally posted by amazonmagic View Post
                So guess what I did it again this morning, amazing! Maybe I'm weird but I am digging this for the feeling I get alone, if it helps burn extra calories, so be it, but I like the way it makes me feel.
                Then you need to read this article! Ten Health Benefits of Cold Showers | Wake Up World

                First paragraph: How many of us can actually say that we take regular cold showers? If you’re from a colder climate, the number is likely to be even less. However, cold showers and baths have a long history in many cultures, and for good reason. Vincenz Priessnitz, a farmer in the 1920s, developed and marketed a medical treatment he called hydrotherapy. He sold the concept of using cold water to cure a long list of aliments, and achieved almost instant success. As the 20th century moved along however, the popularity of hydrotherapy began to decline and falter when medical professionals began to rely more on drugs to treat illnesses and the luxury of hot showers began to increase. However, the use of hydrotherapy as a viable medical treatment never completely stopped. Here are 10 of the many reasons why:

                Comment


                • Originally posted by ljbprrfmof View Post
                  Thanks Otzi!

                  I have noticed that my muscles seem to be 'shivering' for an hour or two after the cool shower. Does anybody else notice this?
                  I sometimes get these strange little 'micro-shivers' running through my body for several hours after, especially if I don't try to warm up. At work, I keep my office at 63 degrees and drink ice water all day. Sometimes that will get those little shivers going. I feel them mostly in my abs and chest.

                  If you are at the point where your lower jaw is chattering and your arms and legs are pumping, you are probably heading into hypothermia zone. Back off it! But those little internal shivers are OK.

                  The best sign you are in the zone to activate BAT and get the benefits of the cold is 'goosebumps'. This is the bodies first reaction and involves heat production (thermogenesis) without involving muscle contractions. One way to increase time in this zone, don't dry off after a cold shower or bath and let yourself airdry. All that evaporation cools the skin, creates goose bumps and leads to non-shivering thermogenesis.

                  Comment


                  • I did 'airdry' this morning. I have never gotten to the point of jaw chattering shivering, so I must be close to the point.
                    Learning the intricacies of healthy eating and nourishing my body the right way.
                    I am not bald, that is a Vitamin D collector. Time to Grok and Roll!
                    Eased into a primal diet starting at Christmas 2011. Goal weight - 205 started: 240 pounds waist 40, now 227 pounds and waist 38 Summer 2012 - weight =215 and waist is actually still 39"
                    ljbprrfmof = LJ = Little John = John

                    Comment


                    • Kruse's writings are compelling for sure, but it's a lot like GCBC where you can just get swept up in the theory until it fails in practice. Especially since so many people doing the leptin reset weren't able to have much success (some did, some did not, but it wasn't a magic cure like he claimed it would be). Would like to see more actual self-experiments rather than just debates about Kruse and/or random crap (like over at Free the Animal).

                      Anyways, I'll try and incorporate some of these ideas. Was barely able to do 5 seconds of face dunking. Can't hold my breath well at all. I'll keep at it. Also did a cold(er) shower this morning, air dry, and no heat in the car this morning (40 degrees), cracked a window for a while. We'll see how that works. Would be nice to have a pool and do some fasted swimming for a bit to burn some fat.

                      Comment


                      • I'm trying real hard to keep Jack Kruse out of this! Unfortunately, he and Ray Cronise are about the only two people doing any real work in this area. Many like Ray C's methods better. Here is something he posted on freetheanimal.

                        "Cool vs Cold?

                        Here is where I think the big gap exists. I think chronic cool trumps acute cold in terms of metabolic function. It sounds like the cliche turtle and hare argument, but metabolically it is much different. Let me share some data from last week (while we were all waiting for you comments to load and crashing iPhones).

                        For 7 days last week we had unseasonably warm temps in north Alabama – highs in mid 80sF and lows in upper 60s. I measured my waking RMR every morning, before eating, just out of bed. It averaged 1582 kcal. Now, over the weekend the temperature dropped down to the 70s day/40-50s night. I let my house ride with outside temperature up to max of 70F(21C). That mean when I woke, the house temp was between 55-60F.

                        The last three days, my waking RMR was 1900, 1930, and 1920 kcal. Nearly a 4 mile run every day for no additional effort. As well, I know that my sleep time is much better during these cold evenings.

                        Some more interesting data. I did some cold soak baths (50F/10C) (10 minutes) using CO2/O2 monitoring. What I found was pretty amazing. As you would expect, I saw a boost in CO2 production on entering the bath. Anyone that has done this knows there is a slight pain period if the water is cold followed by a relaxation about two minutes after. During that time, when the pain vanished, my CO2 production dropped as well. It did not go all the way back to baseline.

                        But it gets better. I allowed it to come to rest (now 5 minutes in) and since I had my hands out of the water (someone here mentioned their feet – so this is for you), once again CO2 went back up. What it tells me is the body VERY quickly (less than a minute) assesses and adjusts the blood flow accordingly. But it goes further. After a minute more I am back to a new settled point and when I stand up to get out – it goes up AGAIN – this time responding to air/evaporative loss driven by my warm body, room humidity and thin water film (no discernible movement in the room). Finally 10 minutes after I started it was still up. If you’ve ever dehydrated running – you’ll know about that cold flash that happens as that last film of perspiration flashes off.

                        Now I post this to let you know that this is all extremely complex – the body is absolutely AMAZING engineering. keeping a 180 lb hunk of titanium +/-.5 degrees is hard enough (ok yes, engineers, -thermal conductivity – its an example), but our body does it every day.

                        On ice immersions Wim’s core temperature RISES by a degree. skin settles in just above freezing.

                        If I was going to give EVERYONE a recommendation it would actually be quite simple: swim. I know it’s not “grok” or “dripping testosterone,” just do it. If the water is about 80F/27C or lower you are in GREAT territory. Swim. My former company manufactured pools and yet I didn’t learn to swim until AFTER I lost my weight. I was an avid scuba diver and wasn’t afraid in any way of the water, but didn’t know how to swim “laps.”

                        Make sure you control caloric intake in that window (2-4 hours) after and if you can do this in the morning while fasting, all the better.

                        80 doesn’t sound like much, but there is nearly 20F delta in temperature and that drives heat loss (energy not, not temperature). Because you are physically active, blood stays flowing to the skin to dump and radiate. What several studies have noted is that hunger rises 2-4 hours after you swim and that is homeostasis kicking in trying to return us to “normal.” I debunk the swimming makes you fat here: Thermogenex - Fuel the Burn

                        Added to this take a look at this post: Thermogenex - Fuel the Burn from Scott Parazynski. We have a lot of data concerning his weight loss on Everest climbs. It’s grueling, but it provides a lot of insight to how the body processes cold. (incidentally Wim made it to about 24K feet in shorts, no oxygen and no shirt. He had to turn back because of the foot injury filming the -40F run you may have seen on discovery. 3 months and it hadn’t healed. Wim is just a bad-ass I don’t care what you say).

                        There are literally hundreds of papers I’ve poured over since 2008. There is so much data it’s overwhelming. I am very happy to contribute to pushing it all in this direction, but if you want to REALLY help, then I will say, Ice is a great “mental game.” It let’s you know you can “do it.” It can be great for adrenaline junkies. It helps sports injuries. It’s extreme.

                        …but you probably can do much more metabolic good with periodic chronic cool. Swimming, cool walks, a few less layers, etc… This means you should be able to thermal load all the way through the summer.

                        Scott, Wim, and I are continuing to work through all of this. There are dozens of other scientists we have consulted with, from Harvard to Holland, and everyone is very positive and supportive. We have a few things (including the breathing mentioned above) that will get everyone going and are trying to distill it down to some basic steps.

                        Please note, this is NOT an endurance sport. There’s nothing to prove. It’s more like chasing parked cars – eventually you’re going to catch one and it isn’t pretty. I hope everyone gets that lesson loud and clear from me. If you want to go extreme, then please have medical supervision – or at least a 911 speed dial (you’re doing what?). Remember the BIGGEST risk is not cooling down or surviving cold – it’s warming up. That is where you will get in trouble and people can and will die. I can’t over emphasize this. Tim and I were careful to stay within reasonable exposure worlds. Don’t be foolish.

                        I am headed for TEDMED2012, which moved to the Kennedy Center this year. I apologize that this is my only comment for now (perhaps you are relieved

                        Thanks everyone and let’s keep this out of ad hominem attacks. It doesn’t move us forward. There’s plenty to learn and plenty credit to go around. Like Newton said, ” If I have seen further it is by standing on ye sholders of Giants.”

                        Ray

                        Let’s bring this together."

                        Comment


                        • I saw that too, maybe one of a couple dozen worthwhile comments out of that pile of crap (not Rich's fault).

                          That would be my guess too, some chronic cold being better than testing the limits of hypothermia.

                          Oddly enough I'm going through Kruse's stuff right now with a fine toothed comb and saw he tagged early CT posts with "hormesis". Something tells me sitting in a tub full of ice every night for over an hour doesn't fall under that category.

                          Or perhaps you just want to be a little chilly much of the time and have some brief and intense exposures to cold.

                          Would be fascinating to peek about 10 years into the future and see if this leads anywhere.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Jaraque View Post
                            Would be fascinating to peek about 10 years into the future and see if this leads anywhere.
                            My guess is that in 10 years people will say, 'Remember when you had to soak in a tub of ice to get all the benefits of this one little pill.'

                            Just like this guy: Vincenz Priessnitz, a farmer in the 1920s, developed and marketed a medical treatment he called hydrotherapy. He sold the concept of using cold water to cure a long list of aliments, and achieved almost instant success. As the 20th century moved along however, the popularity of hydrotherapy began to decline and falter when medical professionals began to rely more on drugs to treat illnesses and the luxury of hot showers began to increase.

                            But, still, on a Primal level, getting cold in the Winter makes so much sense!

                            Comment


                            • And it would be a logical yang to the yin of going out in the sunshine during the summer.

                              Comment


                              • Great minds think alike! I would also bet there is a case to be made for letting our Vit D levels drop in Winter, as well as eating food as it is in season, ie. fish/leafy greens in spring, bugs/fish/meat/vegetables in summer, meat/fat/fruit/tubers/nuts in fall, lean meat in winter...

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