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    This study from 1995 seems to refute the point that "because Michael Phelps and Lance Armstrong (and Lance might not even, seems to me that was a rumor - evidence?) train in the cold, they are better endurance athletes". This study indicated there was no difference between hot and cold training on metabolic or thermal adaptations. Cold water was not better than hot water for increasing VO2 max. Cold water training showed no difference than hot water training on glycogen utilization or lactate accumulation. Also, very interesting to note, training at hot OR cold temperatures increased vasoconstrictor adaptation to cold EQUALLY (vasoconstriction = slower blood flow to skin to retain internal body temp).

    You can say that Michael Phelps is super-human, but so are the thousands of other athletes who trained in warm or hot weathers... show me the evidence that cold-training is better than hot-training, and I will agree. Citing a bunch of hormonal effects in theory is all well and good (AKA some of Kruse's points, many of which I agree with), but citing uncontrolled anecdotal evidence is not the same as the reality of an experiment....

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    • Originally posted by Whitefox View Post
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      This study from 1995 seems to refute the point that "because Michael Phelps and Lance Armstrong (and Lance might not even, seems to me that was a rumor - evidence?) train in the cold, they are better endurance athletes". This study indicated there was no difference between hot and cold training on metabolic or thermal adaptations. Cold water was not better than hot water for increasing VO2 max. Cold water training showed no difference than hot water training on glycogen utilization or lactate accumulation. Also, very interesting to note, training at hot OR cold temperatures increased vasoconstrictor adaptation to cold EQUALLY (vasoconstriction = slower blood flow to skin to retain internal body temp).

      You can say that Michael Phelps is super-human, but so are the thousands of other athletes who trained in warm or hot weathers... show me the evidence that cold-training is better than hot-training, and I will agree. Citing a bunch of hormonal effects in theory is all well and good (AKA some of Kruse's points, many of which I agree with), but citing uncontrolled anecdotal evidence is not the same as the reality of an experiment....
      I went to the University of Florida. It's located in Gainesville, in the middle of a swamp that's in the middle of the state. We get no cooling ocean breezes that far inland and the humidity is mostly above 80%. That's the type of environment that the football team trains in and often times you could see visiting teams that would not be used to just that much heat having it affect their game before the end of the match.
      "You can demonstrate the purpose and limits of human digestion with a simple experiment: eat a steak with some whole corn kernels, and see what comes out the other end. It won’t be the steak."
      -J.Stanton

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      • Originally posted by zoebird View Post
        I've started open-water swimming here in NZ (which most people assert is nuts), and then of course just going ahead and shivering for a bit.

        I miss my saunas.
        why miss out on saunas zoebird? (I love them too). why not combine the sauna with the CT? Or, if you can't do that, just enjoy saunas anyway... I don't think heat interfers with the CT like that, so you don't have to miss out.
        SW: 68 kg. * CW: 61.5 kg. * GW: 60 kg or less...
        “Your work is to discover your work and then with all your heart to give yourself to it.” ~ Buddha

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        • Originally posted by thaijinx View Post
          why miss out on saunas zoebird? (I love them too). why not combine the sauna with the CT? Or, if you can't do that, just enjoy saunas anyway... I don't think heat interfers with the CT like that, so you don't have to miss out.
          I believe in Nordic countries saunas are sometimes enjoyed then finished off with a roll in the snow. I have done that before.
          Learning the intricacies of healthy eating and nourishing my body the right way.
          I am not bald, that is a Vitamin D collector. Time to Grok and Roll!
          Eased into a primal diet starting at Christmas 2011. Goal weight - 205 started: 240 pounds waist 40, now 227 pounds and waist 38 Summer 2012 - weight =215 and waist is actually still 39"
          ljbprrfmof = LJ = Little John = John

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          • Originally posted by Apex Predator View Post
            See, this is the type of thing that drives me nuts about Kruse. Humans have plenty of experience in hot climates. I encourage you to read some paleoanthropology. The ice ages in Africa during the formative years of Homo were characterized by dryness, not cold. They were also intermittent.

            Kruse's actual strategies tend to work(especially since they are almost always borrowed from someone else), at least for a portion of the population. But the reason they work are often unrelated to whatever mystical explanation he gives. This is pretty clear every time he posts on a forum like PaleoHacks, where there is light moderation and a population with a strong academic background. His explanations of why things work are torn to shreds, even with plenty of opportunity to defend himself.
            I havent been on PaleoHacks, so I dont know what goes on over there. I will take a look though, do you have any links?

            I agree with you on humans living in hot, dry climates. (Though before that was the cold oceans). So lets say we have 'adapted' to both, or rather, that there are health benefits to both. Mildly shocking your body in either hot or cold does some good... so why not then do both together, as the nordics, and others, used to do with their sauna/snow combo. It took me a while to link what you said, with zoebird's and the sauna, but perhaps we ARE seeing the adaptation to heat when we sweat it out in a sauna or steam room or hot spring. It induces the fever like response and then jump in the cold, which activates the BAT cold response.
            SW: 68 kg. * CW: 61.5 kg. * GW: 60 kg or less...
            “Your work is to discover your work and then with all your heart to give yourself to it.” ~ Buddha

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            • Originally posted by thaijinx View Post
              I havent been on PaleoHacks, so I dont know what goes on over there. I will take a look though, do you have any links?

              I agree with you on humans living in hot, dry climates. (Though before that was the cold oceans). So lets say we have 'adapted' to both, or rather, that there are health benefits to both. Mildly shocking your body in either hot or cold does some good... so why not then do both together, as the nordics, and others, used to do with their sauna/snow combo. It took me a while to link what you said, with zoebird's and the sauna, but perhaps we ARE seeing the adaptation to heat when we sweat it out in a sauna or steam room or hot spring. It induces the fever like response and then jump in the cold, which activates the BAT cold response.
              A quick google search turned up this summation thread on Kruse over at paleohacks:

              Thoughts on Dr. Jack Kruse? (aka The Quilt) - PaleoHacks.com

              At first glance, he seems to be a mixed bag of good science and some sort of personality disorder. Not that I know, since just seeing some of the people on here that quote him and the way they act was enough for me to stay away from his site.
              Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who has said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own experience.

              In the mind of the beginner, there are many possibilities; in the mind of the expert, there are few.


              I've shaken hands with a raccoon and lived to tell the tale

              SW: 220- 225 pounds at the beginning of January
              CW: 180 pounds

              Goals for 2012: Lose a bit more fat and start a serious muscle and strength routine

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              • just a couple of thoughts from the CT information seeking jag that I've been on for the last month:

                A British study on military personnel, cold adapted, found that when outdoor exercise was studied the increased heart rate correlated exactly to the UV radiation levels from natural sunlight. I don't know what that might mean, but it seemed noteworthy enough for me to remember.

                Also, Shivering Thermogenesis (ST) burns glucose, while Non Shivering Thermogenesis (NST) burns fats. ST is a precurser to cold adaptation, while NST is a symptom of adaptation.

                2 years ago my fasting blood glucose was averaging around 120 and my triglycerides were 383. Last week I had my labs done and my fasting BG was 80, and triglyceride were 189. Those are only two of the remarkable improvements as verified by labwork. 18 months ago I started controlling diet, a year ago I gave up wheat and started monitoring fasting and post prandial blood glucose. Never got my fasting level below 92 until about 2 weeks into CT... amazing.
                There's a crack inside of everything, that's how the light gets in. ~Leonard Cohen
                Journal, From Sick to Fit: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread45653.html

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                • Originally posted by @lex View Post
                  Thoughts on Dr. Jack Kruse? (aka The Quilt) - PaleoHacks.com

                  At first glance, he seems to be a mixed bag of good science and some sort of personality disorder.
                  I see what you mean. eek!
                  SW: 68 kg. * CW: 61.5 kg. * GW: 60 kg or less...
                  “Your work is to discover your work and then with all your heart to give yourself to it.” ~ Buddha

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                  • Originally posted by Apex Predator View Post
                    (Legitimately not trying to be difficult, I promise): so if I have essentially no inflammation and don't want to live any longer than I am already "scheduled" to, there's no upside for me?
                    Originally posted by otzi View Post
                    I would say, pretty confidently, that if someone has no health problems or leanness issues, they could skip CT. They could also skip Primal Blueprint, paleo, and dieting in general as well as exercise and medicine.

                    There is also a "quality of life" issue. You say you don't want to live any longer than "scheduled", but do you want your last years to be consumed by diseases of civilization - heart disease, cancer, diabetes, thyroid issues, etc. that result from premature burnout of stem cells.
                    Last edited by Adrianag; 04-10-2012, 07:00 AM.

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                    • Just wanted to add a few things about Cold Thermogenesis. Over on Free The Animal the blog author is starting his own CT experiments and reporting results, should be fun to watch.

                      I feel saddened that interest in CT has been trivialized because so many people hate Jack Kruse. Well, Jack didn't invent CT and it really is a great way to boost your metabolism.

                      There is more to CT than a quick increase in metabolic rate. Cold activates cold-receptors in the skin, which activate uncoupling proteins, which activate brown adipose tissue. The more BAT is active, the more it grows. The more BAT you have, the hotter your metabolism will run. This is a life-long benefit! Consider the fact that most obese people have little BAT while most lean people have lots of BAT. There is great interest in this right now. Type in 'BAT, obesity' in any search engine and you will see what I mean.

                      CT doesn't have to be miserable. There is not a lot of research done for the average Joe to implement CT, but water cooler than 80 degrees and air cooler than 68 degrees will activate the cold receptors. The first sign is goose bumps. If you see these, you are doing it right. The best way to activate BAT is to remain as long as you can in the temperature zone between "getting goosebumps" and "shivering". If you are shivering, it's too cold.

                      So, let's get nipply!
                      Otzi

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                      • I get a piloerection just thinking about it.

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                        • Originally posted by otzi View Post
                          So, let's get nipply!
                          Werd..............

                          I have just been taking cold showers and using the random ice pack on my lower abdomen and I believe it is having some effect. Or is it affect? Fuck, I hate those two.

                          Anyway, will keep it up and see how it goes. Thanks for starting the thread, it alerted me to CT and I sorta like it.
                          People too weak to follow their own dreams will always try to discourage others.

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                          • I've been getting cold all winter and have shredded fat like crazy. I was a 'last 10 pound' guy all last summer, well that is gone plus 5 more I didn't think I had to lose.

                            Cold does something similar to HCG. While cold-adapted, you can eat very low calories and lose fat, not muscle. I have been IF'ing for several years, it helped me lose 40lbs, but then I just stalled out around 180. I was IF'ing, with daily calories ranging around 1500-2000, if I tried restricting much lower than 1500 I was not happy and really hungry. 24 hour fasts were really hard and 36 hour fasts impossible.

                            Since playing with CT, I have been able to go several days on less than 1000 calories, or fast up to 36 hrs with no hunger or effect on my workouts. It makes the fasts recommended by Mark Sisson in the PB very easy and shredded my fat like I never thought possible.

                            So, after 3-4 months of CT, I am at my lowest weight since my early 20's (I'm 46), a still setting personal bests on pullups, dips and weighted squats.

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                            • Originally posted by otzi View Post
                              I've been getting cold all winter and have shredded fat like crazy. I was a 'last 10 pound' guy all last summer, well that is gone plus 5 more I didn't think I had to lose.

                              Cold does something similar to HCG. While cold-adapted, you can eat very low calories and lose fat, not muscle. I have been IF'ing for several years, it helped me lose 40lbs, but then I just stalled out around 180. I was IF'ing, with daily calories ranging around 1500-2000, if I tried restricting much lower than 1500 I was not happy and really hungry. 24 hour fasts were really hard and 36 hour fasts impossible.

                              Since playing with CT, I have been able to go several days on less than 1000 calories, or fast up to 36 hrs with no hunger or effect on my workouts. It makes the fasts recommended by Mark Sisson in the PB very easy and shredded my fat like I never thought possible.

                              So, after 3-4 months of CT, I am at my lowest weight since my early 20's (I'm 46), a still setting personal bests on pullups, dips and weighted squats.
                              Nice! good to hear. I have been experimenting with this a couple times a week - just doing the ice packs on my tummy. (sometimes back of my neck) I feel like they have been making some sort of noticeable difference in my belly fat (as in seems to be less of it) . . . looks like it's time to up my sessions to a daily thing and see how this goes. Thanks for posting!

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                              • I'm wondering about CT in the summer- do people ice themselves when it's hot outside?

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