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  • Originally posted by Sihana
    Taking a bit of Ray's advice. Ate a small salad after my cold shower last night, all seems well.
    Ray doesn't recommend eating salad. He'd also prefer you do thermal loading on an empty stomach after your fast (morning). I am not surprised at all you woke up hungry.

    Ray Cronise

    Comment


    • Apex.

      I am taking a pause to answer a similar question.

      what parts matter to whom.

      for instance.

      Primal versus Paleo

      Ketogenic versus Isocaloric

      Cold ADAPTATION versus Temperate Adaptation.

      I keep seeking ways to lower my weight. I know that for me isocaloric doesnt work. Ketogenic doesnt seem to allow me to reduce, however, it does not allow me to gain either and in my world no gain is no pain.

      Cold adaptation appears to be clearing my system of estrogen and other "goodies" making me harder ( longer and uncut ) which i currently adjudge a good thing

      and being Keto makes me primal by default but i am not truly Paleo ( you may have got me on that one ) as I do butter and heavy cream.

      I can tell you that my buddies kids dont need to worry about what they eat now, but the youngest got a shin splint the other day and my mind went immediately to a lack of vitamin K and i suggested he ice it like mad. Will he *shrug*

      So for that segment of the population that are not metabolically compromised i think this is gilding the lily. But who knows what could happen for them 50 years later. however as my buddy says, his quality of life ( ie eating zucchini bread at will ) isnt worth an extra 10 years. his thyroid issues dont bother him enough to care to manage it over and above his admittedly sloppy PCP. but he is within 15% of his BMI at age 50 so who cares. he eats what he wants drinks what he wants and it doesn't affect him greatly.

      On the other hand you got me. who eats less and more restricted than he does and always has. he out eats me constantly and other than his twice a week at the gym he sits all day long. Me, from age 26 to 36 i was in the gym 6 days a week for 3 hour sessions and on paper my strength looked awesome, my endurance was wonderful and my ass was gaining over 100 pounds on 800-1200 kcal daily. hell the gym owner refunded a year for me out of pity because he could not reconcile my weight with my ethic, one of the few people i have ever met to trust that i was not secretly eating a hostess factory at night.

      To this day i still have not found out my issue. I have more information than i did, and i know that HCG will take the weight off even if at a slower rate now. but HCG is a major epic cheat, and i want to find the real underlying problem.

      I think that in the end it is all about genetics way more than about behavior. I know my n=1 is biased toward that conclusion, and it smells like victim mentality however i do feel that we are all created unequal, and that we have the intellectual potential to correct those inequalities if we so desire.

      I do
      Optimum Health powered by Actualized Self-Knowledge.

      Predator not Prey
      Paleo Ketogenic Lifestyle

      CW 315 | SW 506
      Current Jeans 46 | Starting Jeans 66


      Contact me: quelsen@gmail.com

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Apex Predator View Post
        I was thinking about this concept last night, and realized, wait, I've always worms shirts, no jacket or both much of the winter, and got fatter through much of that time, even when I lived in an unheated attic. Still interested in playing with it, but wanted to mention that for the record.
        This is why it seemed like bunk to me at first, too. Having lived in alaska most of my life, I know cold. I've also learned to fear cold. A man cannot survive long at -40 without really warm clothing. A man cannot survive long in +40 deg water without a survival suit. As with most Alaskans, as soon as it gets cold in September or October, we wear parkas, facemasks, heavy mittens, etc... We also turn up the heat in our house and spend little time in the actual cold. It is very, very common for nearly everyone here to gain 5-20lbs from Oct thru May. In the 24hr summer sun, we get active again and lose some of the weight. This is how I got up to 250lbs a few years ago. Another thing Alaskans love to do in the winter is EAT. With as little as 1 hour of daylight at Dec 21st, or in some cases no sunlight from Nov - Feb (Barrow, AK). It is very hard to get outside even bundled up.

        Alaska has a huge population of morbidly obese, diabetics, metabolic syndrome, and unhealthy people. There are groups of people, though, that thrive here. Dog Mushers, skiers, trappers, and others who spend extended time outdoors in the winter. Granted, they bundle up and dress for cold, but they see more cold than most.

        Last winter and this winter, I exercised almost nightly on a treadmill in my unheated (40deg) garage wearing just shorts. I usually just walked at 3 mph at max incline for 30-60 minutes. This winter, I stepped it up a notch. I lowered my house temp to around 67 deg (as low as the wife would allow!) and started spending time outside in shorts only at temps from -30 to +10. At first, I could only spend a few minutes at below zero temps, now I can comfortably walk around my yard for 20-30 minutes at -10 deg. or lower.

        What my goal of all this is, is to recruit the BAT (brown fat) depots I may have to activate and burn energy. All the studies (not just Dr. Kruse) point to BAT activation as a healthful move for weight control, leptin sensitivity, insulin sensitivity, and a host of other conditions.

        Seriously, Apex, you seem interested in this for science sake. Go to Google Scholar and type in Cold Thermogenesis Obesity and brown adipose tissue. Sort the results by 2011 and newer. You will be shocked at the research going on in this field.

        I think the wild cards are: does everyone have usable BAT, what is the exact amount of cold exposure needed to activate this, what diet is best for CT, and how long do the effects of CT last.

        You know Cold Thermogenesis isn't a unique term. There are all kinds of Thermogenesis. Non-exercise activity thermogenesis (NEAT), Non-shivering thermogenesis (NST), Over-eating thermogenesis (OET), and Exercise Induced thermogenesis 9EIT) to name a few. It is a very specific reaction at the cellular level, completely different from Thermoregulatiion. Thermogenesis is especially interesting in NST and CT because it comes about through activation of UCP-1, an uncoupling protein that allows cells to bypass their normal ATP produced heat and burn energy directly as heat. It is very, very unique and specific to cold exposure.

        In the 30's, a drug was discovered called DNP ( Uncoupling Proteins and Fat Loss: Misplaced Hopes? | Weight Loss). Thousands of people took this drug and lost weight independantly of food intake. It was studied very well. Unfortunately DNP made peole go blind so it was stopped.

        Sorry for the novel. The more I study CT, the more jazzed I get about it's potential.

        Comment


        • Sorry for the novel. The more I study CT, the more jazzed I get about it's potential.
          what he said.

          It's really not that complicated. >gasp< a scientist that simplifies.

          Ray Cronise

          Comment


          • Originally posted by quelsen View Post
            Apex.

            I am taking a pause to answer a similar question.

            what parts matter to whom.

            for instance.

            Primal versus Paleo

            Ketogenic versus Isocaloric

            Cold ADAPTATION versus Temperate Adaptation.

            I keep seeking ways to lower my weight. I know that for me isocaloric doesnt work. Ketogenic doesnt seem to allow me to reduce, however, it does not allow me to gain either and in my world no gain is no pain.

            Cold adaptation appears to be clearing my system of estrogen and other "goodies" making me harder ( longer and uncut ) which i currently adjudge a good thing

            and being Keto makes me primal by default but i am not truly Paleo ( you may have got me on that one ) as I do butter and heavy cream.

            I can tell you that my buddies kids dont need to worry about what they eat now, but the youngest got a shin splint the other day and my mind went immediately to a lack of vitamin K and i suggested he ice it like mad. Will he *shrug*

            So for that segment of the population that are not metabolically compromised i think this is gilding the lily. But who knows what could happen for them 50 years later. however as my buddy says, his quality of life ( ie eating zucchini bread at will ) isnt worth an extra 10 years. his thyroid issues dont bother him enough to care to manage it over and above his admittedly sloppy PCP. but he is within 15% of his BMI at age 50 so who cares. he eats what he wants drinks what he wants and it doesn't affect him greatly.

            On the other hand you got me. who eats less and more restricted than he does and always has. he out eats me constantly and other than his twice a week at the gym he sits all day long. Me, from age 26 to 36 i was in the gym 6 days a week for 3 hour sessions and on paper my strength looked awesome, my endurance was wonderful and my ass was gaining over 100 pounds on 800-1200 kcal daily. hell the gym owner refunded a year for me out of pity because he could not reconcile my weight with my ethic, one of the few people i have ever met to trust that i was not secretly eating a hostess factory at night.

            To this day i still have not found out my issue. I have more information than i did, and i know that HCG will take the weight off even if at a slower rate now. but HCG is a major epic cheat, and i want to find the real underlying problem.

            I think that in the end it is all about genetics way more than about behavior. I know my n=1 is biased toward that conclusion, and it smells like victim mentality however i do feel that we are all created unequal, and that we have the intellectual potential to correct those inequalities if we so desire.

            I do
            quelsen, do you have your story, pics, diary, etc. posted somewhere? I would love to read it. You are such an inspiration!!!

            Comment


            • Originally posted by quelsen View Post
              Apex.

              I am taking a pause to answer a similar question.

              what parts matter to whom.

              for instance.

              Primal versus Paleo

              Ketogenic versus Isocaloric

              Cold ADAPTATION versus Temperate Adaptation.

              I keep seeking ways to lower my weight. I know that for me isocaloric doesnt work. Ketogenic doesnt seem to allow me to reduce, however, it does not allow me to gain either and in my world no gain is no pain.

              Cold adaptation appears to be clearing my system of estrogen and other "goodies" making me harder ( longer and uncut ) which i currently adjudge a good thing

              and being Keto makes me primal by default but i am not truly Paleo ( you may have got me on that one ) as I do butter and heavy cream.

              I can tell you that my buddies kids dont need to worry about what they eat now, but the youngest got a shin splint the other day and my mind went immediately to a lack of vitamin K and i suggested he ice it like mad. Will he *shrug*

              So for that segment of the population that are not metabolically compromised i think this is gilding the lily. But who knows what could happen for them 50 years later. however as my buddy says, his quality of life ( ie eating zucchini bread at will ) isnt worth an extra 10 years. his thyroid issues dont bother him enough to care to manage it over and above his admittedly sloppy PCP. but he is within 15% of his BMI at age 50 so who cares. he eats what he wants drinks what he wants and it doesn't affect him greatly.

              On the other hand you got me. who eats less and more restricted than he does and always has. he out eats me constantly and other than his twice a week at the gym he sits all day long. Me, from age 26 to 36 i was in the gym 6 days a week for 3 hour sessions and on paper my strength looked awesome, my endurance was wonderful and my ass was gaining over 100 pounds on 800-1200 kcal daily. hell the gym owner refunded a year for me out of pity because he could not reconcile my weight with my ethic, one of the few people i have ever met to trust that i was not secretly eating a hostess factory at night.

              To this day i still have not found out my issue. I have more information than i did, and i know that HCG will take the weight off even if at a slower rate now. but HCG is a major epic cheat, and i want to find the real underlying problem.

              I think that in the end it is all about genetics way more than about behavior. I know my n=1 is biased toward that conclusion, and it smells like victim mentality however i do feel that we are all created unequal, and that we have the intellectual potential to correct those inequalities if we so desire.

              I do
              It's easy for me to say don't get discouraged, but harder for me to mean it 100% since I relate to a lot of what you've said here. I hope CT is the answer those who don't fit inside the weight loss norms need to get back their life. I've never truly believed it was as simple as calories in/calories out, and I think medicine is just beginning to comprehend that obesity is anything more than behavioral gluttony, never mind society.

              You've made amazing progress, and I have to believe you'll continue to if you stay the course with this work. It has led you this far and even if you aren't seeing immediately physical results, everything you do affects some cell in your body, some person you encounter, some ripple in the world. It has to or we are all spinning our wheels.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by joe2.0 View Post
                CT is definitely interesting stuff. Have noticed that Ray Cronise doesn't seem to see the promise that Dr. Kruse does in it as a heal all.
                I wouldn't agree. I am dedicated full time to fighting obesity. I am doing it in a different forum and don't believe that it's as prescriptive as described by many. I am here, not because I eat this way, but because I see good. I see a bunch of people that really are trying hard to get it right and make a difference and a few of my blog members (and Jack) asked if I would chime in.

                Health isn't a contest, despite it being locked away in competitive sport. Being the fastest isn't how we dominated over all of the species.

                Wim and I have both spent a lot of time with this and we are excited to see things change. In the last three years we've seen a HUGE uptick in research and all of that is great to know why. Tim and I knew we'd put this on the map in a big way and I am grateful that Tim has done such an incredible job with promotion of the concept. He's brilliant and driven to help people as well. I want to take awareness into action, but I love the idea of Minimum Effective Dose.

                I hear parents say,"my kids sit at the computer all day and they don't get outside." Kids instinctively leave their coats in the house and expose all the time; we teach them to tolerate heat, sit down, and shut up. I believe the exercise myth is probably much bigger than the calorie myth. Exercise is good for circulatory condition and anaerobic strength, but the vast majority of sports take it to the extreme of injury. People want to do the same with cold stress. It's the idea that more, more, more, stronger, leaner, bigger is better. That's a testosterone-centric view. If those are your goals - I don't have issue, but they aren't mutually exclusive with healthful living. Diabetes and Heart Disease are.

                There are diet impacts, exercise impacts, and lifestyle/environment impacts. Genetics aren't deterministic, but epigenetic changes can be passed to offspring. That's pretty profound.

                wow, I wish I had the time to spend over here, as you guys are driven. I really respect that, but keep in mind it doesn't always have to be complicated to be intelligent. Nature has a way of finding very simple solutions. Sometimes we complicate them by pounding our world view in to make it fit. It's part of the "they're on my team" approach.

                Teams teach us a lot of things, but sometimes they unnecessarily separate.

                Ray Cronise
                Last edited by MrZZeroG; 03-15-2012, 09:59 AM.

                Comment


                • I can remember when swimming competitively at the national level - after a morning training session in a cold outdoor pool in early may - I'd be ravenous by lunch time and easily put away 2-3cans of tuna, and veggies...
                  so here is a simple test. Get up in the morning like you did, EARLY, and on an empty stomach - go swim. The more spastic the better, because swimming generally is a technique sport not a power sport. The worse you are the MORE effort you expend - hence the reason for long hours of repetitive training and the LONG hours of mild cold stress.

                  Then, at lunch load up on cruciferous greens, etc... no oil, no meat, no starch. HUGE quantities. Take beano if you need to and recognize your gut is not prepared for huge amounts of greens unless you eat them regularly.

                  Do that for thirty days. I bet you'll see a difference if nothing else changes.

                  Ray Cronise

                  Comment


                  • Ray

                    I've shared Jack's CT 1-6 series w/my Paleo PCP - also shared w/her the info on the perfect human diet... how can we from your perspectives - raise awareness beyond what we're seeing her on line?

                    What would you like to see us share w/our PCPs, family, friends - beyond the n=1?
                    The most depraved type of human being is the man without a purpose. ~ Ayn Rand
                    What's your purpose? Mine is Optimal Health.

                    Converted to PB November 2010
                    SW 190lb
                    Leptin Reset Redux (1Sep 2011) SW 170lbs
                    25 Sep 2011 160lbs
                    1 Dec 2011 158lbs!
                    GW ~135lbs
                    5'3"
                    Mother of 2, and wife to a kick ass husband...trying to contain chaos and havoc on a daily basis

                    My Journal: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread40609.html

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by quelsen View Post
                      Apex.

                      I am taking a pause to answer a similar question.

                      what parts matter to whom.

                      for instance.

                      Primal versus Paleo

                      Ketogenic versus Isocaloric

                      Cold ADAPTATION versus Temperate Adaptation.

                      I keep seeking ways to lower my weight. I know that for me isocaloric doesnt work. Ketogenic doesnt seem to allow me to reduce, however, it does not allow me to gain either and in my world no gain is no pain.

                      Cold adaptation appears to be clearing my system of estrogen and other "goodies" making me harder ( longer and uncut ) which i currently adjudge a good thing

                      and being Keto makes me primal by default but i am not truly Paleo ( you may have got me on that one ) as I do butter and heavy cream.

                      I can tell you that my buddies kids dont need to worry about what they eat now, but the youngest got a shin splint the other day and my mind went immediately to a lack of vitamin K and i suggested he ice it like mad. Will he *shrug*

                      So for that segment of the population that are not metabolically compromised i think this is gilding the lily. But who knows what could happen for them 50 years later. however as my buddy says, his quality of life ( ie eating zucchini bread at will ) isnt worth an extra 10 years. his thyroid issues dont bother him enough to care to manage it over and above his admittedly sloppy PCP. but he is within 15% of his BMI at age 50 so who cares. he eats what he wants drinks what he wants and it doesn't affect him greatly.

                      On the other hand you got me. who eats less and more restricted than he does and always has. he out eats me constantly and other than his twice a week at the gym he sits all day long. Me, from age 26 to 36 i was in the gym 6 days a week for 3 hour sessions and on paper my strength looked awesome, my endurance was wonderful and my ass was gaining over 100 pounds on 800-1200 kcal daily. hell the gym owner refunded a year for me out of pity because he could not reconcile my weight with my ethic, one of the few people i have ever met to trust that i was not secretly eating a hostess factory at night.

                      To this day i still have not found out my issue. I have more information than i did, and i know that HCG will take the weight off even if at a slower rate now. but HCG is a major epic cheat, and i want to find the real underlying problem.

                      I think that in the end it is all about genetics way more than about behavior. I know my n=1 is biased toward that conclusion, and it smells like victim mentality however i do feel that we are all created unequal, and that we have the intellectual potential to correct those inequalities if we so desire.

                      I do
                      Quelson,

                      Minor semantic quibbles aside, I have always admired your perseverance and fortitude. My goal in learning is to be able to provide the very best answers to anyone I can help.
                      Lifting Journal

                      Comment


                      • I would like to hear about people's results with this- specifically what you do etc.

                        Comment


                        • Much of this discussion has recently moved (as in the lasts 24 hours!) to jackkruse.com.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Clabbergirl View Post
                            Much of this discussion has recently moved (as in the lasts 24 hours!) to jackkruse.com.
                            No wait- just give the 411. This thread is too long and boring.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Apex Predator View Post
                              Quelson,

                              Minor semantic quibbles aside, I have always admired your perseverance and fortitude. My goal in learning is to be able to provide the very best answers to anyone I can help.
                              Optimum Health powered by Actualized Self-Knowledge.

                              Predator not Prey
                              Paleo Ketogenic Lifestyle

                              CW 315 | SW 506
                              Current Jeans 46 | Starting Jeans 66


                              Contact me: quelsen@gmail.com

                              Comment


                              • Should I like just put cold compresses on my neck and stomach? Fine whatever.

                                Comment

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