Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Warning against Ketogenic diets during pregnancy

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #31
    Originally posted by gcbcb View Post
    I would find this much more compelling if the linked studies had actually examined the effects of low blood sugar on the development of the fetus. The speculation on a link between ketones and epigenetic programming is an interesting thought, but I don't see any evidence that it's actually true. Which is important when it comes to making scientific claims.
    Marcus Pembrey's research has shown that epigenetic modifications are inherited and it can take a few generations for them to disappear if the stimulus that caused them disappears from the environment. He's found that the grandchildren of Brits who lived through rationing in World War 2 as young children are more likely to be obese than those whose grandparents didn't go through that experience.

    Research in epigenetics is very much in its infancy. We can only speculate on what the long-term consequences of radical changes in our diet will be.

    An absence of scientific evidence to prove that an extreme diet is not safe is not good enough for me. I want strong scientific evidence that it is safe for my ancestral group and demographic before I'll even consider any extreme diet.
    Last edited by paleo-bunny; 03-07-2012, 05:46 AM. Reason: grammar
    F 5 ft 3. HW: 196 lbs. Primal SW (May 2011): 182 lbs (42% BF)... W June '12: 160 lbs (29% BF) (UK size 12, US size 8). GW: ~24% BF - have ditched the scales til I fit into a pair of UK size 10 bootcut jeans. Currently aligning towards 'The Perfect Health Diet' having swapped some fat for potatoes.

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Dragonfly View Post
      Also, I work with pregnant moms and many I have talked to have been LC during pregnancy with zero problems for moms or babe. In fact, the moms I know who ate the lower carb diets had the least amount of morning sickness and other pregnancy issues. Here's a story for you:Paleo from Pregnancy | The Primal Parent
      Yeah I know the primal parent story, however our argument is against VLC not LC. I think the risks are only there when you are <50 carbs on a regular basis, which would put your in ketosis most of the time. Do not get me wrong, Primal pregnancy's I think are FAR healthier then SAD. I will have a primal pregnancy one day for sure. I just think we need to be a little more cautionary about the carbs (good ones like fruit/sweet potatoes/and maybe white rice) and not purposely restrict them especially if we are craving them. I see no good reason to do so, and I see potential harm in doing so.
      Primal since March 2011

      Female/29 years old/5' 1"/130ish lbs

      Comment


      • #33
        I don't buy this, people on the zeroinginonhealth forums have been on zero carbs diets while they were pregnant and they did very well. They also raised their children on zero carb diets
        Paleo since November 2011 - Carnivore since June 2012
        Before and after pics
        http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread65846.html
        Primal Sucess Story
        http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread65400.html
        Primal Journal
        http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum...tml#post955444

        Comment


        • #34
          Interesting
          Indications are Ketogenic diets do not breed obese cultures, as evidenced by Inuit & other high fat eating civilisations, but maybe the epigenetic factor does tune them better for a low carb environment, these cultures only got fat when white man brought them donuts & sugar, maybe they will adapt to donuts in another ten generations.

          Regarding the Ductch Starvation babies, it was specifically those that were foetal during this time, if they were born before, even though they may still be nursing and spent the first 2 years of life in a low nutrition environment, they reflected normal population rates of diabetes, obesity etc.
          What I would like to know is what are the diabetes/obesity stats for the children of the Dutch starvation babies, have they reverted to normal levels again?

          There are some who think epigenetics is playing a big role in the current chronic disease epidemics, as in the low fat/high carb diet that has been prevalent since the 1970's - I haven't got the full details, but I saw the stats for autism and it describes the typical mother of an autistic child being an educated professional, slim, weight conscious, artificial sweetner, low fat, sun protection etc. it seems that this environment results in some form of malnutrition and altered gene expression.

          I think people should be wary of making strong assumptions on very loose corrolations, that is of course what the Sat Fat/Cholesterol story was about, there is very little evidence that a ketogenic diet is detrimental to anyone, even pregnant women.

          Best bet seems to be run the middle ground, go the primal but don't restrict the carbs too much.
          "There are no short cuts to enlightenment, the journey is the destination, you have to walk this path alone"

          Comment


          • #35
            This seems like a random "poke" at keto diets with little to no proof.....I was searching some old info the other day and came across this ...."There are a number of striking things about the data once you sum them up. First of all, diet composition varied widely. Many groups were almost totally carnivorous, with 46 getting over 85% of their calories from hunted foods. However, not a single group out of 229 was vegetarian or vegan. No group got less than 15% of their calories from hunted foods, and only 2 of 229 groups ate 76-85% of their calories from gathered foods (don't forget, "gathered foods" also includes small animals). On average, the hunter-gatherer groups analyzed got about 70% of their calories from hunted foods. This makes the case that meat-heavy omnivory is our preferred ecological niche. However, it also shows that we can thrive on a plant-rich diet containing modest amounts of quality animal foods." from Guyenet....so tahts 46/229 = roughly 20%

            So if 20% of hunter gatherers get "over 85%" of calories from hunted food AND small game counts as "gathered food" I'm just gonna make the guess that most these peoples where in ketosis a significant amount of the time, and yes probably during pregnancy. Sorry, but I just don't buy the OP's alarmism. Especially with lack of any real evidence. When evidence is lacking I'm going with the HG's.

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by Dragonfly View Post
              Um, folks--nice theorizing, but really there is no problem with ketosis during pregnancy as long as you are getting enough calories and nutrients. Fetuses and babies thrive on ketones. Babies brains need healthy fats for development.

              Read this:Ketogenic Nutrition: Ketones fuel fetal development

              Also, I work with pregnant moms and many I have talked to have been LC during pregnancy with zero problems for moms or babe. In fact, the moms I know who ate the lower carb diets had the least amount of morning sickness and other pregnancy issues. Here's a story for you:Paleo from Pregnancy | The Primal Parent

              Even some calorie deficit in the first trimester doesn't seem to be a problem (morning sickness anyone?) since our bodies are designed to make sure baby gets sufficient nutrition & will rob mom's nutrient stores to do so. Assuming mom has sufficient nutrient stores, of course!

              I do not mean to imply that you need to go low carb during pregnancy or to be in ketosis! Simply that neither is a problem as long as the diet is nutrient dense and calorie sufficient overall.

              When moms come to me for nutrition coaching, if mom has been on a SAD diet, I suggest that she will want to focus on creating gut health & replenishing her nutrient stores for at least a year before conceiving. I do not recommend low carb, unless mom is having issues with a higher carb diet.

              And +1

              Comment


              • #37
                Yep, I think putting a "consult your doctor if you are or think you may be pregnant" caveat on any diet plan is a CYA legal move.

                (It was noted earlier that "even Atkins" cautioned against using their diet during pregnancy.) I don't think this means it's dangerous, just that there are so many other things that could complicate pregnancy and then be blamed on <insert diet program here>. ketosis is no different.

                +1 to dragonfly saying the major thing is adequate nutrition.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Ketosis is strongly NOT recommended for pregnancy and proper fetus development. Anyone basing their decisions on "what grok might have done" or any other evolutionary theorizing in this type of situation is highly irresponsible and taking a completely unnecessary gamble with the life and well being of their unborn child.

                  Originally posted by BennettC View Post
                  I don't buy this, people on the zeroinginonhealth forums have been on zero carbs diets while they were pregnant and they did very well. They also raised their children on zero carb diets
                  So a small bunch of people online doing something makes it a good idea? I know parents who smoked and drunk alcohol through pregnancy and their children turned out ok as well.
                  Edit: Man, I just had a quick browse and I found that forum just plain disturbing. Some parents that won't allow their children fruits and vegetables even though their kids aren't thriving and have been diagnosed with low thyroid, fatigue and learning difficulties. It's possibly even more disturbing than reading about raw vegan parents seeking answers as to why their kids are thin and sickly living despite being on the "healthiest natural diet possible". Makes you want to reach through your computer screen and slap some sense into these extremists.
                  Last edited by Forgotmylastusername; 09-27-2012, 02:49 AM.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Forgotmylastusername View Post
                    Ketosis is strongly NOT recommended for pregnancy and proper fetus development. Anyone basing their decisions on "what grok might have done" or any other evolutionary theorizing in this type of situation is highly irresponsible and taking a completely unnecessary gamble with the life and well being of their unborn child.
                    Please Explain
                    Do you have a credible source for this statement with appropriate scientific data?

                    I am not advocating ketogenic diet during pregnancy as I said earlier, but do challenge the absolute negative until I see more information.

                    Informed decisions are required, not alarmist opinion.
                    "There are no short cuts to enlightenment, the journey is the destination, you have to walk this path alone"

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Allow me to blatantly copy/paste this answer...seems like a good compilation of what little evidence we do have outside of the obvious epidemiological evidence provided by a large portion of hunter gatherer tribes:

                      "You will see it all over the web that ketosis is dangerous for the fetus, but you won't find evidence. I see three classes of the so-called evidence. There is evidence that if you have diabetic ketoacidosis it is not good for the fetus, but we know that you can't compare benign dietary ketosis to diabetic ketoacidosis. There is animal evidence that if you starve pregnant rats, which also produces ketosis, it is not good for the fetuses. The flaw in that reasoning should be obvious. Finally, there is one experiment where they sliced up the brains of rat fetuses and soaked them in ketones, and the brain cells survived but the slices stopped producing new brain cells. This is supposed to be evidence of ketosis causing retardation.

                      On the other hand, a fetal metabolism text will tell you that fetuses are naturally using ketones themselves before and immediately after birth. This study shows that a pregnant pigs who are put on a ketogenic diet have fetuses with "increased fetal brain weight, protein content, and cell size." This text book article says "During early pregnancy there is an increase in body fat accumulation, associated with both hyperphagia and increased lipogenesis. During late pregnancy there is an accelerated breakdown of fat depots, which plays a key role in fetal development. Besides using placental transferred fatty acids, the fetus benefits from two other products: glycerol and ketone bodies. Although glycerol crosses the placenta in small proportions, it is a preferential substrate for maternal gluconeogenesis, and maternal glucose is quantitatively the main substrate crossing the placenta. Enhanced ketogenesis under fasting conditions and the easy transfer of ketones to the fetus allow maternal ketone bodies to reach the fetus, where they can be used as fuels for oxidative metabolism as well as lipogenic substrates..." In this study they inject pregnant rats with ketones and show that the fetuses readily use them for fuel. Similar here with sheep. In this one they took embryos and soaked them in ketones which either had no effect or caused them to grow.

                      Emily Deans also wrote something relevant and telling recently

                      Let me put it this way. Breastmilk is high in fat. Newborns (should) spend a lot of time in ketosis, and are therefore ketoadapted. Being ketoadapted means that babies can more easily turn ketone bodies into acetyl-coA and into myelin. Ketosis helps babies construct and grow their brains. (Update - looked more into this specifically and it seems that babies are in mild ketosis, but very young babies seem to utilize lactate as a fuel in lieu of glucose also - some of these were rat studies, though - and the utilization of lactate also promotes the same use of acetyl-CoA and gives the neonates some of the advantages of ketoadaptation without being in heavy ketosis.)

                      Couple those with the fact that some cultures like the Inuit ate an all meat diet, and that we probably evolved on it, I am not concerned about it." - Ambimorph (her web site here http://www.ketotic.org/)

                      For more Paleo Diet hacks: Ketosis during pregnancy - PaleoHacks.com Ketosis during pregnancy - PaleoHacks.com

                      Again just for a reality check as to the so called dangers.
                      Last edited by Neckhammer; 09-27-2012, 09:22 AM.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Since I'm post-menopausal and in no danger of pregnancy, I'd like to question another assertion by the OP:

                        "Ketogenic diets over long periods of time can also cause your t3/t4 ratio out of whack which screws up your thyroid."

                        I have been eating a ketogenic diet for years--and lost close to 200 lbs. I also have Hashimoto's, an autoimmune disease that causes my hypothyroid condition. When my T3 'tanked' a few years ago, necessitating supplemental T3 (Cytomel), I had read some of this stuff about the 'danger' of low carb eating, and I asked my endo whether my diet was creating problems with my thyroid.

                        My endo is excellent, trained at a major NYC medical center, and he told me that my WOE had nothing to do with my screwed up thyroid hormones. In fact, he said that the failure of the body to convert T4 to T3 (which caused my problem) is known to be characteristic of Hashimoto's. It doesn't affect every patient, but it's a problem for many.

                        My endo loves my WOE because all my lab numbers are superb (when he checks my thyroid, he does a full blood panel), and at my age (71) my thyroid hormones are the only Rx I require. He's told me that he wishes he could get other patients (especially his diabetics) to eat the way I do.

                        Correlation does not equal causation.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Neckhammer View Post
                          Let me put it this way. Breastmilk is high in fat. Newborns (should) spend a lot of time in ketosis, and are therefore ketoadapted..........
                          Breast milk does also contain a good proportion of lactose as well, but your comment prompted a thought.

                          Does the composition of breast milk change when mother is in Ketosis?
                          I have heard it can shift around a little bit with changes in diet, but don't have any specifics.
                          "There are no short cuts to enlightenment, the journey is the destination, you have to walk this path alone"

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Omni View Post
                            Breast milk does also contain a good proportion of lactose as well, but your comment prompted a thought.

                            Does the composition of breast milk change when mother is in Ketosis?
                            I have heard it can shift around a little bit with changes in diet, but don't have any specifics.
                            Good question. That portion was a quote from Emily Dean here Evolutionary Psychiatry: Your Brain on Ketones. That bit is just part of her post (second to last paragraph) on brain and ketones.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Neckhammer View Post
                              Let me put it this way. Breastmilk is high in fat. Newborns (should) spend a lot of time in ketosis, and are therefore ketoadapted. Being ketoadapted means that babies can more easily turn ketone bodies into acetyl-coA and into myelin. Ketosis helps babies construct and grow their brains. (Update - looked more into this specifically and it seems that babies are in mild ketosis, but very young babies seem to utilize lactate as a fuel in lieu of glucose also - some of these were rat studies, though - and the utilization of lactate also promotes the same use of acetyl-CoA and gives the neonates some of the advantages of ketoadaptation without being in heavy ketosis.)
                              Um, what? Different nutrition sites give slightly different numbers, but human breast milk has more sugar in it than fat--roughly 7g sugars vs 4g fat and 1g protein, per 100g of milk. This is not even close to a ketogenic diet. On a 2000kcal/day diet for an adult that would equate to ~190g carbohydrate, ~120g fat, and ~30g protein per day.

                              I'm not saying babies don't or shouldn't go into ketosis, but a diet with these proportions for an adult would be considered moderate-high carb and moderate fat. It's actually closer to ice cream than any other food in macronutrient ratios (the main difference being that ice cream has much less water). 2000kcal of ice cream would come in ~180g carbs, ~130g fat, and ~30g protein, obviously depending on the recipe. Very, very similar, in fact.
                              Today I will: Eat food, not poison. Plan for success, not settle for failure. Live my real life, not a virtual one. Move and grow, not sit and die.

                              My Primal Journal

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Omni View Post
                                Interesting
                                Indications are Ketogenic diets do not breed obese cultures, as evidenced by Inuit & other high fat eating civilisations, but maybe the epigenetic factor does tune them better for a low carb environment, these cultures only got fat when white man brought them donuts & sugar, maybe they will adapt to donuts in another ten generations.
                                .
                                There's no hard evidence whole cultures have been in ketosis for generations and spent their pregnancies in ketosis. Just a lot of guesswork and theorizing. Even the Inuit are said to have adaptations that make them more efficient at gluconeogenesis, thus keeping them out of ketosis a lot of the time. Add to that their diet sometimes consisted of berries, roots and glycogen in fresh meat. And the reasons there is no big studies is because no logical mother is going to enroll in a diet study experiment that could have lifelong consequences on their unborn child. Every low-carb book I have read has strongly warned against ketosis in pregnancy. Strangely enough, the only one that I can think of that doesn't mention pregnancy is "The art and science of low-carbohydrate living" by Volek and Phinney, which I think is kind of telling. I'll guess because if they mentioned it at all they would have probably have to put in a disclaimer, which would kind of be counter productive considering the whole book is basically all about how natural and great ketosis is.


                                Furthermore, even Michael Eades who is possibly one of the biggest proponents of ketogenic diets you will find online is against the idea.

                                Eades:
                                "The medical literature (at least with animal studies; no one could ethically do such studies with humans) is pretty clear that ketogenic diets are NOT good for the developing fetus.

                                I’m not an expert on this issue as it applies to developing fetuses, so I check with my friend Larry McCleary who is a pediatric neurosurgeon, low-carb advocate, and well read in the nutritional fetal development literature. He says that in the fetal brain most of the lipid synthesis is from glucose and to a smaller degree, lactate. Beta hydroxybutyrate (a ketone) is not a major contributor. In addition, the enzymes in the pathway from BHB to acetyl CoA in the fetal brain are poorly developed. Post natally they activate. Hence, BHB is not a major provider for ATP generation in the fetal brain.

                                For these reasons he feels that a ketogenic diet might not be the best diet during pregnancy. But having said that, I (and he) don’t think a high-carb diet is the diet of choice either. A moderate carbohydrate diet with plenty of colorful fruits and vegetables along with healthy servings of meat would be ideal in my opinion."

                                Anyone that takes the risk is truly insane. People need to be a bit more responsible about some of the ideas they promote online. Just because conventional wisdom is wrong some of the time it doesn't mean you should automatically reject all of it.
                                Last edited by Forgotmylastusername; 09-28-2012, 02:46 AM.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X