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  • Originally posted by Mountainduck View Post
    I must have VLC induced brain fog. Are Granny Smith apples less carby than Galas????
    Don't eat apples! The average apple has like 30 grams of carbs! Death! Your family will leave you! Your dog will poop on the rug! The economy will fail!

    I can see what sbhikes means about my punctuation,it's pretty damn annoying now that I focus on it lol.
    Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who has said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own experience.

    In the mind of the beginner, there are many possibilities; in the mind of the expert, there are few.


    I've shaken hands with a raccoon and lived to tell the tale

    SW: 220- 225 pounds at the beginning of January
    CW: 180 pounds

    Goals for 2012: Lose a bit more fat and start a serious muscle and strength routine

    Comment


    • You know, I have it on good authority that "Sisson" is Nordic for "potato."
      "Do or do not. There is no try." Yoda.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by otzi View Post
        Choco - didn't I read that you gained weight and got all flabby on your recent 30DOPE? So, you were eating PUFA's and donuts? What happened? Carbs?
        I didn't get flabby. I don't think my body fat really changed. I bloated up a bit, but I also added a lot to my lifts. I was eating much higher fat than usual - duck, chicken legs, ribeyes and eggs like mad. I'm lean to the point where my body partitions dietary fat as body fat more than carbohydrate. I think the issue was I was nutrient deprived from that stint of the UD2 I did and I was really craving saturated fat. I feel much better now and my appetite has decreased a bit. I shed weight pretty easily so I'm not concerned.
        Don't put your trust in anyone on this forum, including me. You are the key to your own success.

        Comment


        • Wow...you don't check the boards for a few days and look what happens! I just want to throw out a bit of support for the idea that Choco has thrown out here. I am female, and active, and have been PB for a couple of years. I actually started gaining weight after about 6-8 months of PB and eating 50-100g carbs, so I went lower, I kept carbs under 50g, and I gained/maintained, I could not lose. I did not consider the benefit of "carbing up" until I read Choco's original thread. I started carbing up about 3 weeks ago, and following a similar pattern to Choco's really. My carbs are usually under 50 on rest days, and around 200g on lifting days. I have lost close to 5 pounds, with less exercise, and more energy, and I feel so much better. I was NOT doing my body a service by staying low carb all the time.

          I think it is helpful to let people know that if you are stuck, if you aren't losing, and if you are at a close to goal weight, then increasing carbs occasionally might HELP. I know that I was stuck in the "I have to eat low carb to lose" mindset, and I did need something (or someone) to shake up my belief system a bit, and help me realize that there might be a better way for ME to lose weight.

          I am sure that it won't be beneficial for everyone to lose weight, or increase their health this way. But it is a valid way to lose the last bit of bodyfat. It works, and I still don't eat grains. I eat sweet potatoes, regular potatoes, yogurt, etc. and I really look forward to my carb up days. I feel like I get a better balance of nutrients this way also.

          Comment


          • Today was a higher carb day for me because I did a fairly intense kettlebell and calisthenic circuit. My carbs were two medium potatoes and a bowl of white rice with vegetables, which would total somewhere around 150-170 grams I think. This is an example of a high carb day for someone who is in the process of losing weight still, but also actively exercising. It's not good to stay low carb and increase your activity levels at the same time, it taxes the body and limits the potential of your workouts. Tomorrow is a rest day, so I'll eat maybe 50-70 grams of carbs, a lot of healthy fat, and do some light exercise like swinging Indian clubs and so on. This method helps me burn fat fast and get the most out of my workout days. I tried working out with very low carbs....an 88 pound kettlebell felt like it weighed as much as I do.
            Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who has said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own experience.

            In the mind of the beginner, there are many possibilities; in the mind of the expert, there are few.


            I've shaken hands with a raccoon and lived to tell the tale

            SW: 220- 225 pounds at the beginning of January
            CW: 180 pounds

            Goals for 2012: Lose a bit more fat and start a serious muscle and strength routine

            Comment


            • Originally posted by ChocoTaco369 View Post
              But carbs are never the problem. If you can't handle carbohydrate because your metabolism is damaged, that's not the fault of carbohydrate. Let me give you a scenario that I've pointed out before.

              I don't tolerate homogenized milk well. It causes allergies. When I drink it for extended periods, I become sensitive to dust, mold, cats and dogs. What's happening is the milk is causing an autoimmune condition in my body. I'm probably inflamed and overproducing histamine and antibodies and they're attacking these otherwise benign particles, turning them into potent allergens and driving me into a miserable state. Now, if I were to go to a doctor, he would prescribe me a pill to block histamine, tell me to avoid cats and dogs, stay indoors during the mold season and keep my house spotless so there's no dust. But that does nothing to treat the cause - you are treating a symptom. All I really have to do is just remove the homogenized milk from my diet.
              I haven't disagreed with you at all on this. I didn't say whether or not carbs are the root problem. I believe it may be any of the neolithic agents of disease; I'm not certain which. Could be industrial oils or refined sweeteners. I don't know. I'm certain that primal carbs did not cause my metabolic derangement. You are putting words in my mouth.

              Homogenized milk causes you to be allergic to cats. You'd rather avoid the milk (address the root problem) than avoid the cats. What do you do while waiting for the histamine reactions to die down? You probably avoid the cats.

              Damage from my decades of SAD eating & CW medicine adherence caused me to have very bad reactions to carbs. Even primal ones. I'd rather avoid the SAD & CW meds than avoid the carbs, yes. But what do I do while waiting for the intestinal, hormonal, and metabolic damage to die down? I avoid the primal carbs.

              Now, the difference between you and me is that it takes a lot more than a few hours or days to undo the damage I've done, to allow me to enjoy the primal carbs again. I expect 6 months to a year of hard work on all fronts, actively taking in super foods, not just avoiding the NAD. For some people who are seriously disordered, for instance in severe autism, by the onslaught of processed foods, environmental toxins, c-section birth, antibiotics, etc., it takes literally years. Years before they can have spoonful of raw honey or a bite of sweet potato without a regression into flapping, muteness, seizures, or worse, regressions that can last weeks or months, and often do.

              Carbs are the cats and dogs - they simply have to be removed until your body heals. Once it's healed, it's crucial you add them back in in appropriate quantities to regain your metabolic flexibility.
              Yes, that's what I said. This is what I said: "So folks like you need to understand that it's incorrect and useless to go around saying things like "Carbs are never a problem, people are" and folks like me need to understand that it's incorrect and useless to go around saying things like "Carbs are dangerous and should be avoided." The reality is that primal carbs are perfectly healthful for someone who has not imbibed industrial foods long enough to damage himself, while they often are not for those who have. And the latter group is not at all small.

              Neither blanket statement is useful. And long dull threads like this could be avoided entirely if we all understood both sides of this story.
              "


              That remains - primal carbs are harmful to me in the same way cats are harmful to you while you're suffering from the damage from homogenized milk . This does not mean I'm saying they are always harmful, have always been harmful, and always will be harmful.

              I think your problem is that when you have a hammer, everything looks like a nail. You are interpreting people who say things like I do (I cannot tolerate primal carbs RIGHT NOW WHILE I HEAL) as saying we can never ever ever tolerate carbs. I see far, far more people saying what I'm saying than those saying what you say they are saying.

              However, most people are not doing this. They stay chronically low-carb because they have developed a phobia of them, yet they pay little attention to their consumption of additives and PUFA oils as long as that product has low net carbs!
              Well, you and I must live in different forum worlds. I do not see much of anyone on MDA avoiding carbs like crazy and eating tons of PUFAs. That's Atkins stuff. Not primal. I don't see people going low carb or VLC and staying that way for years and planning to stay that way forever. One or two here or there, but nothing like a movement or consensus.

              Some people do extend the damage by doing 80/20 primal foods. I accidentally did. I thought I could have a serving of high quality dessert with some wheat in it once every month or so and still work toward restoring my health. (More like 98/2 than 80/20.) I was wrong. I have to go 100%, no exceptions. I can thank my screwed up gut for that. I know most people don't have to be that extreme. But even doing what I did is a far cry from shunning carbs and welcoming vegetable oil & MSG.

              You're blaming the cats and dogs for something that is the fault of the milk.
              I hope you see now that this is a complete misrepresentation of what I said. You read what you think everyone else is saying. You didn't read what I actually said. I think you do this *a lot*.

              Appropriate amounts of carbohydrate will boost your energy through the roof. Chronic low carb leads to thyroid conditions, lowers libido, provides suboptimal levels of energy, impairs workout recovery, low testosterone, elevated cortisol.
              Actually, the opposite is true *at this time*. Carbohydrates in my life right now actually worsen all of these situations. *That will not always be the case.* But it is right now. I have had periods of the kind of booming energy I used to have, while eating VLC (keep in mind that for me, this is unlimited amounts of non-starchy veggies), and am currently experiencing an increase in all of these problems while still VLC. AGain, I do not expect thsi to be the case forever. But I think perhaps you underestimate the time it can take for (*many*) people to recover from the damage they've done.

              ..a better life will await you if you treat low-carb as a temporary situation to a temporary problem. Not everyone should eat 300g of carbs a day. This is DEFINITELY true. But no one with a healthy metabolism should be eating 50g of carbs a day, either.
              Just as it would be inaccurate to say no one should eat 300g/day, this, too, is inaccurate. Ask the Inuit. Note that I don't mention them to say EVERYone should eat like them, but to say that some can do this and thrive. Some. Not all. Just as *some* can thrive on 300g/day, but not all.


              Originally posted by ChocoTaco369 View Post
              I didn't get flabby. I don't think my body fat really changed. I bloated up a bit, but I also added a lot to my lifts. I was eating much higher fat than usual - duck, chicken legs, ribeyes and eggs like mad. I'm lean to the point where my body partitions dietary fat as body fat more than carbohydrate. I think the issue was I was nutrient deprived from that stint of the UD2 I did and I was really craving saturated fat. I feel much better now and my appetite has decreased a bit. I shed weight pretty easily so I'm not concerned.
              My <5% BF husband eats huge quantities of naturally raised animal fat, meaty cuts, & eggs. He probably averages 50-100g carb most days, ,b/c that's just what he likes. He never carb loads. And he never gains fat from fat. Never.
              5'4" 39yo mother to five sweeties & married to their AMAZING DaddyGrok
              Current Weight: 175lb__________________________________Goal: 135lb
              Deadlift: 240lb________________________________________Back Squat: 165lb
              Bench: 130lb__________________________________________Pre ss: 85lb
              ***Winning a 20-year war against binge eating disorder***

              Comment


              • Originally posted by ChocoTaco369 View Post
                You're not getting it. Metabolic damage is not caused by carbohydrate. It's caused by omega 6, grain/legume toxins, artificial chemicals and the ensuing hormonal imbalance and systemic inflammation that results from these poisons. You could be eating 300-400g of carbs a day every day and as long as your caloric intake is appropriate, you're not going to become metabolically deranged assuming those carbs are coming from real food - fruit, potatoes, tapioca, parsnips, white rice and other real, healthy carbohydrate sources.
                Oh, I get it alright.
                But arguing over the cause doesn't help fix it.
                And you came across as a complete dick in your post, and I've already dealt with that shit for the last 20 years, so forgive me if I have no tolerance left for attention-seeking.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by sbhikes View Post
                  those who replace all punctuation with ~ marks.
                  Sorry~ didn't know my writing style offended anyone~ maybe you need more sugar?

                  Comment


                  • I think it adds a touch of class so pay the haters no mind Nady
                    Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who has said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own experience.

                    In the mind of the beginner, there are many possibilities; in the mind of the expert, there are few.


                    I've shaken hands with a raccoon and lived to tell the tale

                    SW: 220- 225 pounds at the beginning of January
                    CW: 180 pounds

                    Goals for 2012: Lose a bit more fat and start a serious muscle and strength routine

                    Comment


                    • I kind of agree partially with Choco. However, I also agree that we are all different and therefore one type of diet cannot work for all.

                      I agree with Choco: in my opinion, we cannot condemn all carbohydrates as bad and avoid everything that contains carbs as being bad. I also agree that the processed, toxic, chemically-produced substances people eat now are not food. That goes for everything that has HFCS, soy and soy by-products, corn, highly PUFA industrial oils, and any chemicals and additives. He is right that there is nothing wrong with eating carbs in the form of fruits, vegetables, and honey, the way we naturally were supposed to eat carbs.

                      However, I also agree with other posts that not all people are the same. I cannot apply my awesome experience with food to everybody since everybody's metabolism might be different due to age, gender, past diet, and exercise levels.

                      My story is probably different than most people on this board. I was born and raised in South America but live in the United States. I have never had problems with diet and weight, and have no intolerances or allergies to any food. My weight has remained pretty much the same since I was 14 years old. I do not have cravings for any particular food. I have never counted grams of fat, sugar or anything. I actually never even knew that what I have been eating all my life is considered now some sort of regimented diet.

                      I do not really eat and never really ate processed food. My diet has always consisted mostly of grass-fed meat, wild fish, fruits, vegetables and dairy. I eat dairy daily in the form of homemade yogurt and raw cheese. I also put whole milk and cream in my hot chocolate and tea. I do eat homemade pizza once in a while, and homemade whole wheat pizza crust. I do not like the taste of bread. I never liked it but I have to eat it on certain occasions when I want to eat my homemade pate. Maybe I eat bread a couple of times a year the most. I never count calories or how many grams of sugar or fat I eat.

                      I do not think that carbohydrates are evil. I eat them in the form of fruits, vegetables, and raw honey. Maybe some raw cane sugar. I do not see anything wrong with eating bananas daily. But that is what works for me and my family and we have been eating that way for generations.

                      To Choco: one thing that I do not understand is that you say that we should not eat processed food, but you eat Cherry Garcia ice cream? Have anybody looked at the ingredients in commercial ice cream (carrageenan anyone?). We do not eat that, not because of the sugar content but because of the highly industrial process that goes into producing commercial ice cream. I do eat ice cream, real ice cream: eggs, sugar and cream. That's it. I make my own ice cream. If I want to have a fruit flavored ice cream, I add actual fruits to it or real vanilla extract, not artificial flavors.
                      Same for white rice. Guess what, we never really ate white rice. The reason we never ate white rice was not because of the carbohydrate content (we never really cared about that), but because to us white rice is tasteless processed food.
                      However, we do eat quinoa, which is a gluten-free pseudocereal. We do not eat it because it is gluten-free pseudocereal (which I never knew until recently) since we do not have problems with gluten. We eat it because of its nutty flavor and the fact that is not as processed as other foods.
                      Also butter: you say you eat minimal amounts of butter and rather use water to cook meat? What is wrong with butter? We cook with butter (which is just churned cream), coconut oil, and olive oil.

                      I guess what I am trying to say is that while I agree with Choco that there is nothing wrong with carbs coming from natural sources such as fruits, vegetables, honey and even raw sugar and we actually probably need carbs to function, I cannot disregard other people's experiences with carbs (who have probably been subjected to the highly industrial carbs in food). If for them, eating even natural carbs from wholesome food sources wrecks havoc to their system, then they should listen to their bodies. I am not in their shoes. I also think that advocating eating Cherry Garcia ice cream when people are trying to eat healthy and lose weight might confuse people who are trying to lead a healthy lifestyle.

                      Comment


                      • I just want to say thanks to Choco and @lex because honestly...I was getting carbphobic. Its pretty bad when you feel guilty about eating a whole banana, and having a baked potato ( i dont eat the skin i swear) for lunch. I started PB in late november last year and I think you're right. You can pry my potatoes out of my cold dead irish hands. However, I have found if I eat sugar, I just want more of it. I'm really not too sure if I'm metabolically damaged...or if its gone now...all I know is that if I eat sugar...i become a cookie monster, which is no good for weight loss. I love the primal blue print and I love that its such a hippie diet (its all natural, dude), it really jives with how I want to live my life. Now that I have this type of wisdom to go on, I will continue to listen to my body and not fret so much about the small things. Thats what bothers me about some people, you have one cheat day and its like "oh noes! I'll never be able to see my abs and now I'm prediabetic cuz I had greasy ole chinese food with the bf last night" And the people who say well you eat two pieces of fruit so you just had a shitton of sugar so you wont ever lose weight can suck it. I love fruit. My sister is carbphobic i think...and she's a triathalete...i need to send her this forum..she's always tired and hangry (hungry+angry) and I tell her to eat a g*ddamn potato with butter and she just looks at me like i'm a fattie booboolatttie. Of course, I probably shouldn't be eating potatoes with something like 30 pounds to lose but still. I think the carbphobic thing comes from our mother, who would often go on a random VLC diet (suzanne somers, atkins) and just convince us all that carb=devil. But I really think the focus of this thread is a great one. Avoid toxins...not food.

                        Comment


                        • btw cherry garcia is my favorite. I will crop dust a whole city and not give a damn.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Maureen M View Post
                            I just want to say thanks to Choco and @lex because honestly...I was getting carbphobic. Its pretty bad when you feel guilty about eating a whole banana, and having a baked potato ( i dont eat the skin i swear) for lunch. I started PB in late november last year and I think you're right. You can pry my potatoes out of my cold dead irish hands. However, I have found if I eat sugar, I just want more of it. I'm really not too sure if I'm metabolically damaged...or if its gone now...all I know is that if I eat sugar...i become a cookie monster, which is no good for weight loss. I love the primal blue print and I love that its such a hippie diet (its all natural, dude), it really jives with how I want to live my life. Now that I have this type of wisdom to go on, I will continue to listen to my body and not fret so much about the small things. Thats what bothers me about some people, you have one cheat day and its like "oh noes! I'll never be able to see my abs and now I'm prediabetic cuz I had greasy ole chinese food with the bf last night" And the people who say well you eat two pieces of fruit so you just had a shitton of sugar so you wont ever lose weight can suck it. I love fruit. My sister is carbphobic i think...and she's a triathalete...i need to send her this forum..she's always tired and hangry (hungry+angry) and I tell her to eat a g*ddamn potato with butter and she just looks at me like i'm a fattie booboolatttie. Of course, I probably shouldn't be eating potatoes with something like 30 pounds to lose but still. I think the carbphobic thing comes from our mother, who would often go on a random VLC diet (suzanne somers, atkins) and just convince us all that carb=devil. But I really think the focus of this thread is a great one. Avoid toxins...not food.
                            I agree on the cheat day thing, people that lose their minds and get depressed over one bad meal really need to put things into perspective. Ok,so you slipped up and had a bad meal, it's not the end of the world and it wont undo all the hard work you've done up until now. It's amazing that people can blissfully chow away on bad food for years,switch their diet to something healthier, then freak out when they eat one or two meals of the same kind of food that was their staple diet and act like it's the end of the world. Look, if it didn't kill you during the 15 years you were eating it every single day,then it isn't gonna kill you when it's an occasional mistake sandwiched between healthy eating and exercise. My main issue,which includes the carb fear,is that people get way too nuts with self-imposed restrictions and end up miserable or unhappy while doing something that is ultimately meant to benefit them. I think that listening to your what your body tells you and not stressing over every tiny detail or mistake is the key to a healthy diet and lifestyle in the long term sense.
                            Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who has said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own experience.

                            In the mind of the beginner, there are many possibilities; in the mind of the expert, there are few.


                            I've shaken hands with a raccoon and lived to tell the tale

                            SW: 220- 225 pounds at the beginning of January
                            CW: 180 pounds

                            Goals for 2012: Lose a bit more fat and start a serious muscle and strength routine

                            Comment


                            • Best thread here in a while. The anti-carb tirade was getting a little ridiculous. I'm still amazed at the fact that people actually consider fruits to be "bags of sugar" or (my favorite) "nature's candy." Sure, if you're fixing your metabolism, you'll want to limit them. Once you're better, let the dogma go.

                              People are definitely more receptive of starch now than they were a year or two ago, but it seems like everyone is still reluctant to accept fruits. Look at the 80/10/10 crowd. They're not fat, they don't have diabetes, and many of them are extremely athletic. I don't think it's an ideal diet by any means, but clearly, all of those "bags of fructose" aren't causing degenerative disease. Mangoes don't make you diabetic any more than meat clogs your arteries.
                              Last edited by tarek; 02-08-2012, 01:38 PM.

                              Comment


                              • Y'all realize that not only is chaco right, this is nothing new. Kurt Harris said the same thing long ago(albeit with a slight disagreement over fructose).

                                I was fat, went through exactly what Chaco recommends(a period of LC fixing of my metabolism), then hit a wall on LC, reintroduced unlimited primal carbs, hit all my goals, and lived happily ever after.

                                Yes, some people may have so much damage that they may never get beyond the first step.

                                In pretty much every example you'll find that healthy primals who eat more carbs have lower BG than healthy primals who eat VLC.
                                Lifting Journal

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