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  • Originally posted by @lex View Post
    Good job exaggerating and missing an otherwise good point.He's not saying eat whatever you want,nor is he dismissing people out of spite,he's simply saying that low carb isn't always the answer to a health problem or the key to long term health.He's mainly addressing people that have healed a lot of the damage they've done yet still stick to the low carb dogma and end up running into problems,which happens much more often then most low carb people would care to admit.It's been said numerous times in this thread that if you've damaged your body and your metabolism is a mess then low carb is a great way to lose weight and repair the damage,but once the damage is repaired and the person is healthy and active the carb paranoia needs to stop.I've actually seen people being paranoid over a single apple on this forum.....an apple,on Mark's daily apple,if you don't see a problem with that line of thinking then there isn't much to say.It's all this low carb dogma and fear of a macro-nutrient that gets paleo thrown in with fad diets and wackjobs.Once an average person is healthy there's no reason for them to avoid carbs to the extent that some people suggest in the paleo community,because carbs from a healthy source are perfectly fine and humans have thrived on them for literally millions of years.

    Also,believe it or not,some people don't see magical results when they go low carb,and if nobody in the community explains why we need to stop vilifying carbs the people that do poorly on the one recommendation that's spammed mindlessly at them are bound to become confused and lose hope,or worst yet keep plowing forward on a diet that their body is telling them isn't right for them.

    Paleo is not low carb,it's low toxin,and that distinction absolutely needs to be made for the betterment of everyone involved.
    Dude, you need to put a space after comma's, and 2 spaces after a period.....just sayin.....

    btw, I agree with a lot of what you and Choco are saying, based on my own experience and experimentation, which is still evolving....but the 'bedside manner' leaves a little to be desired.....I know Choco isn't interested in being subtle, but a lot of people simply won't respond to a too direct approach, kinda sad but true....that being said, I still haven't truly tried ketosis, think I will soon, then I will probably start incorporating healthy carbs again....I don't think too many people on here will disagree with you that healthy, high quality foods, no matter what the macro, is the key, and is a basic tenet of PB.
    Last edited by Barnyard; 10-04-2013, 07:36 AM.
    The life I have today is far better than I deserve.......

    M, 58, 6'0
    SW - 192
    CW - 180
    GW - 165-170

    Current addiction: ice cream (and sugar in general).....doing battle with it!

    Comment


    • Originally posted by MamaGrok View Post
      FF'ing to the end because there is too much of the same yada yada...




      But that's not what you titled the post. You didn't say "Sugar isn't the problem (if you're not metabolically deranged like over half of the American populace). You're the Problem."

      You're saying CARBS ARE NEVER THE PROBLEM LAME-O'S!
      Others are saying CARBS ARE ALWAYS A PROBLEM LAME-O!

      The reality is, almost no one alive today has grown up avoiding the processed foods of modern commerce. Some are young enough that their bodies haven't fallen apart yet on it. I was like that 10 years ago. Maybe then I could have gone straight from SAD to primal with lots of primal carbs. The person who is still young enough not to have metabolic damage, and lucky enough to find a primal/paleo way of eating, is rare indeed.

      So folks like you need to understand that it's incorrect and useless to go around saying things like "Carbs are never a problem, people are" and folks like me need to understand that it's incorrect and useless to go around saying things like "Carbs are dangerous and should be avoided." The reality is that primal carbs are perfectly healthful for someone who has not imbibed industrial foods long enough to damage himself, while they often are not for those who have. And the latter group is not at all small.

      Neither blanket statement is useful. And long dull threads like this could be avoided entirely if we all understood both sides of this story.


      BTW, I'm no longer borderline insulin resistant. My IR score is way, way low. But I still can't handle carbs yet. I will, some day. Not yet. It's not just IR playing here.
      +1....well said MamaGrok!
      The life I have today is far better than I deserve.......

      M, 58, 6'0
      SW - 192
      CW - 180
      GW - 165-170

      Current addiction: ice cream (and sugar in general).....doing battle with it!

      Comment


      • Originally posted by ChocoTaco369 View Post
        I would rather eat healthy things that aren't paleo than unhealthy things that are paleo.
        So, uh what Paleo things are unhealthy?

        There are some borderline not-exactly-whole foods, but they aren't Paleo. They are in the Primal 20%. Example: whey powder.
        5'0" female, 45 years old. Started Primal October 31, 2011, at a skinny fat 111.5 lbs. Low weight: 99.5 lb on a fast. Gained back to 115(!) on SAD chocolate, potato chips, and stress. Currently 111.

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        • IMO, nuts, seeds, lard, bacon, turkey, veggies, fish oil.

          Comment


          • So, uh what Paleo things are unhealthy?
            I don't think any paleo foods are "unhealthy" but as you eat a limited range of foods, some foods may veer into unhealthy. Like nuts. A handful of nuts every so often is different then consuming a cup of almond meal every day. Same with bacon. Yeah, a few strips here and there. But with every meal? It's probably on the verge of a bad idea. And I think it's unhealthy to eat such a limited number of foods (I mean people who basically eat meat and few veggies and then straight up fat). Like throw some fruit in there.

            http://maggiesfeast.wordpress.com/
            Check out my blog. Hope to share lots of great recipes and ideas!

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            • Overconsumption of nutrient-lacking, calorically dense foods is not healthy. Moderation is the point. Coconut oil is a healthy oil to use in your pan to fry up some meat and veggies. However, taking it orally by tablespoonfuls 2-3 times per day is probably not that healthy and a waste when those same calories could be filled with 4-6 ounces of meat, some veggies and a piece of fruit.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by MarielleGO View Post
                It was confusing to me that somebody who obviously is a regular and very familiar with TPB states that something so high on carbs as sugar isn't all to bad for you, especially when in TPB it's so clearly advocated that carbs aren't in ones best interest.
                When I read your post I'm just finishing the chapters on the eating principles of TPB and am trully convinced that for my body at least the low sugar/ low carb idea of eating is the best sollution. and I thought everybody here felt the same.
                But I totally understand your point. You eat what makes you strongest and feel good in the long term.

                I don't eat beans because I don't like them and I don't eat potatoes because I get sick from the starch. But when I have a home-made curry you bet I'm eating it with a little bit of wild rice.

                It's been very interesting to read your p.o.v. and learned me that I still have tons to learn about what's good to eat and what not... like you said process of elimination...
                Most who have read the books and eat this way for a period of time would agree with you. However, the forum is not likely to be a realistic cross-section of those people. Those on here tend to be in one of three groups: tried it and having some difficulty with long standing medical issues; argumentative/intellectual types that like to play and debate; or like you people thinking that this forum is a place of support for those actually trying to adhere to paleo/primal principles. The latter group tends to get confused by the former 2. Thats why I usually tell people new to the forum to run away! Usually for at least three months, so you can accumulate the proof of how well this works for yourself before being blasted by counter-views.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by oxide View Post
                  So, uh what Paleo things are unhealthy?
                  Richard Nikoley had a funny image on his site last week.



                  I see recipes for "paleo brownies" popping up everywhere. They're almost universally made out of nut meals or nut butters. Technically, "brownies" made out of ground nuts, eggs, butter and cocoa powder are "paleo." But the original iteration of paleo completely blacklisted white potatoes. Personally, if I ever make brownies I make them out of cocoa powder and tapioca starch, but I digress.

                  I consider legumes, dairy and potatoes healthier than nuts in general. There are gray areas - obviously I'd much rather eat macadamias than soy, and I would agree that almond butter is a little healthier than peanut butter, but I would rather eat a side dish of rice and properly prepared beans than nuts for health.

                  Originally posted by oxide View Post
                  There are some borderline not-exactly-whole foods, but they aren't Paleo. They are in the Primal 20%. Example: whey powder.
                  Junk. It is Primal only because Mark makes money off it.
                  Don't put your trust in anyone on this forum, including me. You are the key to your own success.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by ChocoTaco369 View Post
                    I think adrenal fatigue is extremely rare, if not non-existent. The people that say they have it are almost always self-diagnosed, and anyone professionally diagnosed are probably misdiagnosed.

                    Not everything is a thyroid issue, that is true. But the problem is that chronic stress often affects the thyroid since it is the overall driver of the metabolism. If you are having health problems, you are having metabolic problems. If you are having metabolic problems, it is probably screwing with your thyroid/adrenal/hypothalmus somehow because they are an intricate system that any hormonal imbalance screws with. But that doesn't mean it is a problem with that system - the challenge is finding the cause.

                    I am moving my mindset toward the "bioenergetic view" of health. Rather than the short-sighted approach of treating symptoms like the modern medical establishment does, I look at illness as the overall health of the "cell." We are all composed of cells, and if we are sick in any way, then some or all of our cells are sick in some way. This means every disease not caused by outside means (an infection, physical trauma, etc) is some type of metabolic imbalance. Virtually every endogenous condition can be explained by some type of hormonal imbalance, so it's my goal to try and correct those imbalances in people.

                    Up until a month ago, I had never heard of a cluster headache before. My girlfriend's father gets them HORRIBLY for a month every single year. He just started his cycle in September. I've been doing feverish research, and I noticed during the summer when we went to the beach together he had an abnormal propensity to sweat. That signals an aldosterone issue typically. I had him get a thyroid panel, and it came back normal. I am assuming given his age and his propensity to sweat, he is likely experiencing some type of "andropause" that older males will get. I got him some DHEA pills and progesterone cream for women. He has been on it for 3 days and he is headache-free. She just texted me to tell me he said to thank me because he thinks this snapped him out of his cycle. His neuro for years was completely stumped and can't help him, but I can snap him out of his cycle in a week?

                    Huh?

                    It's an amazing viewpoint and I'm falling in love with it. I really think it's the secret to curing disease.

                    I've taken several modules in functional medicine. Bioenergetics, hormones, neuromechanical structural integrity, digestion and absorption, immune reactions, co-enzymes and nutritional status, fatty acid analysis..... They are certainly all at play and interconnected. You can not expect to change any one of those without subsequently effecting the rest. Thats what makes so many standard medical treatments less than ideal and in some cases down right dangerous. The "side effects" are usually a dysregulation of other aspects associated with the target....statins are a well known one so using that for example and how they block CoQ10 in addition to doing the useless thing they are prescribed for (lowering your cholesterol). Of course they also act in an anti-inflammatory fashion so they probably work for people who have already had a heart attack for that reason primarily. Anyhow, yup much more to it than meets the eye.

                    Oh, and adrenal fatigue....guess we will just be likely to disagree. I think its a significant issue in and of itself. Sure there are associated nutritional deficiencies and lifestyle modification that need to be addressed to get to the "route" cause of the issue, but as a diagnosis its stands.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by ChocoTaco369 View Post

                      I see recipes for "paleo brownies" popping up everywhere. They're almost universally made out of nut meals or nut butters. Technically, "brownies" made out of ground nuts, eggs, butter and cocoa powder are "paleo." But the original iteration of paleo completely blacklisted white potatoes. Personally, if I ever make brownies I make them out of cocoa powder and tapioca starch, but I digress.

                      Junk. It is Primal only because Mark makes money off it.
                      It's not so much that potatoes and rice are unhealthy or even not Paleo; they aren't immediately unhealthy like grains, and they're clearly Paleo in the sense that Grok could have found and eaten them. But those starches simply have too many carbs for me. I'd rather spend my limited carb allowance on veggies or even honey than on a potato.

                      Paleo brownies are not really Paleo, they trying to fake SAD comfort food. It's in the same class as the fake meat the vegans eat. "Gluten free" anything is "Paleo" only because somebody pretending to be Paleo makes money off of it. And, again, gluten free is still carbs that would be better spent on veggies.

                      Does Mark approve whey powder solely because he sells one particular version? I suspect not. If Mark was out to be a money grubber, he wouldn't bother with a website, certainly not a website which is free of outside ads.
                      5'0" female, 45 years old. Started Primal October 31, 2011, at a skinny fat 111.5 lbs. Low weight: 99.5 lb on a fast. Gained back to 115(!) on SAD chocolate, potato chips, and stress. Currently 111.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by @lex View Post
                        Don't eat apples! The average apple has like 30 grams of carbs! Death! Your family will leave you! Your dog will poop on the rug! The economy will fail!

                        I can see what sbhikes means about my punctuation,it's pretty damn annoying now that I focus on it lol.
                        True that Alex
                        The life I have today is far better than I deserve.......

                        M, 58, 6'0
                        SW - 192
                        CW - 180
                        GW - 165-170

                        Current addiction: ice cream (and sugar in general).....doing battle with it!

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by @lex View Post
                          Today was a higher carb day for me because I did a fairly intense kettlebell and calisthenic circuit. My carbs were two medium potatoes and a bowl of white rice with vegetables, which would total somewhere around 150-170 grams I think. This is an example of a high carb day for someone who is in the process of losing weight still, but also actively exercising. It's not good to stay low carb and increase your activity levels at the same time, it taxes the body and limits the potential of your workouts. Tomorrow is a rest day, so I'll eat maybe 50-70 grams of carbs, a lot of healthy fat, and do some light exercise like swinging Indian clubs and so on. This method helps me burn fat fast and get the most out of my workout days. I tried working out with very low carbs....an 88 pound kettlebell felt like it weighed as much as I do.
                          and you started putting spaces after commas and periods!!!!! Thanks my man!
                          The life I have today is far better than I deserve.......

                          M, 58, 6'0
                          SW - 192
                          CW - 180
                          GW - 165-170

                          Current addiction: ice cream (and sugar in general).....doing battle with it!

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by gottaluvalab View Post
                            I agree that at points the carb-phobia thing is annoying and off-putting and out of control. And I'm a diabetic controlling it (marginally, haltingly, with much angst and falls off and climbs back on the wagon) by limiting carbs compared to SAD. I've told myself that when I can't eat a banana without being in danger, it's time to go back on the meds, because at that point I'll just be too damn broken to deal without them, and I mean that.

                            That said--I'm amazed that a way of living that amounts to "eat whole foods and don't sit on your ass all day more than you have to" can amount to 15 pages of emotionally-overwhelmed pseudo-science by pseudo-experts who may or may not have had their pseudo-success for some pseudo/seeming length of time that they personally find impressive.

                            I guess it's the nature of the internet, and I suppose I'm just as guilty at points, so call me out if you want to--I'm sure there's plenty of evidence.



                            Frankly, I think everyone's over-thinking this because Modern Life conspires against us at every turn, and in defense, we create elaborate rules and regulations by which to live and judge each other.

                            After reading three pages of this, I put on my refrigerator: "Eat whole foods and don't sit on your ass all day more than you have to." And then I skipped to page 13, and by the time I finished, there were 15 pages!!!
                            AWESOME post! That is my take after reading several pages of this post also.....
                            The life I have today is far better than I deserve.......

                            M, 58, 6'0
                            SW - 192
                            CW - 180
                            GW - 165-170

                            Current addiction: ice cream (and sugar in general).....doing battle with it!

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Neckhammer View Post
                              Most who have read the books and eat this way for a period of time would agree with you. However, the forum is not likely to be a realistic cross-section of those people. Those on here tend to be in one of three groups: tried it and having some difficulty with long standing medical issues; argumentative/intellectual types that like to play and debate; or like you people thinking that this forum is a place of support for those actually trying to adhere to paleo/primal principles. The latter group tends to get confused by the former 2. Thats why I usually tell people new to the forum to run away! Usually for at least three months, so you can accumulate the proof of how well this works for yourself before being blasted by counter-views.
                              What about me? I'm here because I'm bored at work and this website doesn't crap out my web browser. XD I think I need a group of my own!
                              Out of context quote for the day:

                              Clearly Gorbag is so awesome he should be cloned, reproducing in the normal manner would only dilute his awesomeness. - Urban Forager

                              Comment


                              • This is a great discussion. I changed to primal, loss 80 lbs in 9 months, did the different hacks and wavered for 10 more, then did vlc with steak and eggs and lost the last 15 for a total of 105 in just over a year. In the last 2 weeks, started to reintroduce sweet potatoes and squash due to weird symptoms from vlc.

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