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  • Originally posted by @lex View Post
    Now,I don't know about you folks,but I can't stuff 13 and a half baked potatoes down my throat, so in reality a really high carb paleo diet isn't something you can do by accident,you have to make an effort to get there. If you're eating carbs from white rice then things can change a bit,but even then you can tell when you're stuffing yourself with too much rice if you just listen to your body and use some common sense. Today was a heavy carb day for me and I was somewhere between 150-200,and this is with making an effort to up the intake.
    This is actually kind of a problem I'm trying to solve right now because my partner needs to carb-load for his half marathon on Sunday, and he's eating primal and wants to fuel the run on primal foods (he's going on Mark's fuelling recommendations). I bought potatoes, rice, sweet potatoes, pineapple, oranges, extra bananas...he's going to have to eat a LOT of fruit and starchy veg over the next three days. Choco, what all are you eating to hit your 300g on refeed days? I have to get at least 350g per day into his diet, probably more because he still has to work tomorrow and Friday and he moves appliances all day so his overall caloric needs are ridiculously high (4500 on a normal work day, as much as 6000 if he works and does a long run).
    “If I didn't define myself for myself, I would be crunched into other people's fantasies for me and eaten alive.” --Audre Lorde

    Owly's Journal

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Owly View Post
      This is actually kind of a problem I'm trying to solve right now because my partner needs to carb-load for his half marathon on Sunday, and he's eating primal and wants to fuel the run on primal foods (he's going on Mark's fuelling recommendations). I bought potatoes, rice, sweet potatoes, pineapple, oranges, extra bananas...he's going to have to eat a LOT of fruit and starchy veg over the next three days. Choco, what all are you eating to hit your 300g on refeed days? I have to get at least 350g per day into his diet, probably more because he still has to work tomorrow and Friday and he moves appliances all day so his overall caloric needs are ridiculously high (4500 on a normal work day, as much as 6000 if he works and does a long run).
      Damn....well rice is definitely a good idea then.Luckily since his caloric needs are high it gives you a lot of headroom and you can probably take a lower calorie high carb paleo diet,adjust some of the foods and portion sizes,and be ok.If he tolerates rice well then load up on that,as far as paleo carbs go rice is fairly dense.Things like a nice rice and steak bowl,potato wedges baked with some spices and oil,banana smoothies using coconut milk, and sweet potato mashed with some butter and spices are all great ideas for a higher carb paleo menu.I'm sure choco would be able to give you some better advice since he's more experienced with hitting the 300+ mark with paleo carbs,but I'd assume some of the stuff I've listed is a good starting point.
      Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who has said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own experience.

      In the mind of the beginner, there are many possibilities; in the mind of the expert, there are few.


      I've shaken hands with a raccoon and lived to tell the tale

      SW: 220- 225 pounds at the beginning of January
      CW: 180 pounds

      Goals for 2012: Lose a bit more fat and start a serious muscle and strength routine

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Owly View Post
        This is actually kind of a problem I'm trying to solve right now because my partner needs to carb-load for his half marathon on Sunday, and he's eating primal and wants to fuel the run on primal foods (he's going on Mark's fuelling recommendations). I bought potatoes, rice, sweet potatoes, pineapple, oranges, extra bananas...he's going to have to eat a LOT of fruit and starchy veg over the next three days. Choco, what all are you eating to hit your 300g on refeed days? I have to get at least 350g per day into his diet, probably more because he still has to work tomorrow and Friday and he moves appliances all day so his overall caloric needs are ridiculously high (4500 on a normal work day, as much as 6000 if he works and does a long run).
        I eat more fat with my carbs than Choco, but when I upped my carb intake to 300g a day, it looked something like five to ten servings of fruit (usually three to five bananas, two cups of berries, and a splash of fresh-squeezed orange juice in smoothies), 16oz of sweet potato, and a half cup of sprouted brown rice porridge with maple syrup or raw honey. There were times where I'd eat two pounds of white potato and it worked well for a while. In retrospect, I'd definitely tone down the fat -- I was eating like three or four tablespoons of olive oil with the potatoes, and it was just making me fatigued. Anyway, that should give you an idea of the amounts you'll need to be eating if you want to have him get 350g in a day.

        Comment


        • I think that people around here are confusing carb-phobia with helping newbies adjust to a low carb plan. You just demonstrated that if you try to eat the SAD level of carbs with primal sources of carbs, it's almost impossible. Therefore you just demonstrated that the Primal Blueprint is basically a low carb diet. There's lots of people struggling with carb flu and lots of posts about how to help them. I think that's getting confused with carb phobia by a lot of people.
          Female, 5'3", 50, Max squat: 202.5lbs. Max deadlift: 225 x 3.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by sbhikes View Post
            I think that people around here are confusing carb-phobia with helping newbies adjust to a low carb plan. You just demonstrated that if you try to eat the SAD level of carbs with primal sources of carbs, it's almost impossible. Therefore you just demonstrated that the Primal Blueprint is basically a low carb diet. There's lots of people struggling with carb flu and lots of posts about how to help them. I think that's getting confused with carb phobia by a lot of people.
            Carb-phobia I've seen here:

            Bacon has too many carbs, due to sugar in curing.
            Jerky has too many carbs, due to flavoring.
            A handful of berries is too high carb.
            Fruit juice in marinades is too high carb.
            Cut back on veggies, there's too many carbs in them(!).
            Sweet potatoes are cheats.
            Any fruit is a cheat.
            Any sugar is a cheat.(Mark puts it in his coffee.)
            Half a bananna is a too many carbs for the whole day.
            Half and half has too many carbs.

            That's just the tip of the iceberg.
            Lifting Journal

            Comment


            • Originally posted by sbhikes View Post
              I think that people around here are confusing carb-phobia with helping newbies adjust to a low carb plan. You just demonstrated that if you try to eat the SAD level of carbs with primal sources of carbs, it's almost impossible. Therefore you just demonstrated that the Primal Blueprint is basically a low carb diet. There's lots of people struggling with carb flu and lots of posts about how to help them. I think that's getting confused with carb phobia by a lot of people.
              No I didn't silly,I demonstrated that it's hard to reach the carb levels suggested by a typical SAD diet when you replace the junk food with paleo foods within the context of the calorie suggestions of a SAD diet.The typical SAD suggestions are 2000 calories,and while you can hit 350 grams of carbs eating paleo and being within 2000 calories,it certainly isn't easy or practical.We don't use the SAD standards as a basis for any part of the paleo diet really,so don't try to apply the SAD standards of high carb to the paleo standards of high carb.High carb paleo on a 2000 calorie diet would be something like 150-200 grams,which many people in this thread have already suggested for those eating higher carb.Now,if we were following SAD standards this would actually be considered low carb,which I think we can all agree is pretty nuts.Of course,as you increase the carbs you also increase the calories,so you can hit 350 grams of carbs eating a paleo diet that's also balanced,but the caloric intake is going to be correspondingly higher and should only be used by people who are very active and burning a lot of energy like the person mentioned in Owly's post.
              Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who has said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own experience.

              In the mind of the beginner, there are many possibilities; in the mind of the expert, there are few.


              I've shaken hands with a raccoon and lived to tell the tale

              SW: 220- 225 pounds at the beginning of January
              CW: 180 pounds

              Goals for 2012: Lose a bit more fat and start a serious muscle and strength routine

              Comment


              • Originally posted by sbhikes View Post
                I think that people around here are confusing carb-phobia with helping newbies adjust to a low carb plan. You just demonstrated that if you try to eat the SAD level of carbs with primal sources of carbs, it's almost impossible. Therefore you just demonstrated that the Primal Blueprint is basically a low carb diet. There's lots of people struggling with carb flu and lots of posts about how to help them. I think that's getting confused with carb phobia by a lot of people.
                Lower carb naturally, yes. Without eating refined sugars, it is hard to get it to the average SAD intake. But I do see a lot of people who are worried about eating one sweet potato or one banana in a day. I think we need to distinguish between a paleo/primal diet with no carb restrictions and the VLC diet some folks think is the only way to go. I agree that VLC can help people who are dealing with massive metabolic damage, but I found that dropping below 50g/day was no good for me even when I was moderately overweight (I've never hit "obese" on the BMI charts). I kept to a little under 100g for my initial weight loss, yes, but now I don't count, and I'm losing fat still, even with eating pineapple *and* banana *and* pumpkin custard all in one day.

                I think even for those of us who are not young, ultra-fit men, VLC is not always helpful. I am a mid-30s woman, active but not ridiculously so (3x week Crossfit plus walking with my dogs regularly), and cutting carbs too far created a stall for me and left me feeling like crap. I think I just didn't have as much metabolic damage as some folks. I think that in some of us, eating VLC actually triggers the body to hold onto fat instead of using it.

                I think the regulars here know the difference between someone who's eating a normal primal level of carbs and someone who's carbphobic. I cringe when I read about someone wondering if they're going to inflate like a balloon because they ate a bite of their kid's pear that morning.
                “If I didn't define myself for myself, I would be crunched into other people's fantasies for me and eaten alive.” --Audre Lorde

                Owly's Journal

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Apex Predator View Post
                  Carb-phobia I've seen here:

                  Bacon has too many carbs, due to sugar in curing.
                  Jerky has too many carbs, due to flavoring.
                  A handful of berries is too high carb.
                  Fruit juice in marinades is too high carb.
                  Cut back on veggies, there's too many carbs in them(!).
                  Sweet potatoes are cheats.
                  Any fruit is a cheat.
                  Any sugar is a cheat.(Mark puts it in his coffee.)
                  Half a bananna is a too many carbs for the whole day.
                  Half and half has too many carbs.

                  That's just the tip of the iceberg.
                  I agree. The most bothersome part to me was a number of people who would tell others to skip *one* piece of fruit per day, because they felt it was stalling weight loss. One orange a day isn't going to stall anything, and if you think it is, you're probably lying to yourself about the rest of your diet/lifestyle.

                  I confess that during my initial conversion to a more paleo-style diet I was a bit carb-phobic myself. I've since adjusted - and take in the majority of my carbs from fruits/sweet potatoes/the occasional bit of rice. I still eat lower-carb compared to the average American diet, but plenty to fuel myself through 3x a week lifting, and 2-3x/week of intervals/sprints/straight running and the occasional bike ride.

                  All in all, I still consider "eat real, whole food" to be the most important take-away of all things paleo/primal. And don't obsess over the little things. Unless you have celiac, the cortisol you produce from stressing over the couple grams of flour used to thicken that sauce is probably harming you more than the sauce itself.

                  Comment


                  • I agree that at points the carb-phobia thing is annoying and off-putting and out of control. And I'm a diabetic controlling it (marginally, haltingly, with much angst and falls off and climbs back on the wagon) by limiting carbs compared to SAD. I've told myself that when I can't eat a banana without being in danger, it's time to go back on the meds, because at that point I'll just be too damn broken to deal without them, and I mean that.

                    That said--I'm amazed that a way of living that amounts to "eat whole foods and don't sit on your ass all day more than you have to" can amount to 15 pages of emotionally-overwhelmed pseudo-science by pseudo-experts who may or may not have had their pseudo-success for some pseudo/seeming length of time that they personally find impressive.

                    I guess it's the nature of the internet, and I suppose I'm just as guilty at points, so call me out if you want to--I'm sure there's plenty of evidence.



                    Frankly, I think everyone's over-thinking this because Modern Life conspires against us at every turn, and in defense, we create elaborate rules and regulations by which to live and judge each other.

                    After reading three pages of this, I put on my refrigerator: "Eat whole foods and don't sit on your ass all day more than you have to." And then I skipped to page 13, and by the time I finished, there were 15 pages!!!

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by gottaluvalab View Post
                      I agree that at points the carb-phobia thing is annoying and off-putting and out of control. And I'm a diabetic controlling it (marginally, haltingly, with much angst and falls off and climbs back on the wagon) by limiting carbs compared to SAD. I've told myself that when I can't eat a banana without being in danger, it's time to go back on the meds, because at that point I'll just be too damn broken to deal without them, and I mean that.

                      That said--I'm amazed that a way of living that amounts to "eat whole foods and don't sit on your ass all day more than you have to" can amount to 15 pages of emotionally-overwhelmed pseudo-science by pseudo-experts who may or may not have had their pseudo-success for some pseudo/seeming length of time that they personally find impressive.

                      I guess it's the nature of the internet, and I suppose I'm just as guilty at points, so call me out if you want to--I'm sure there's plenty of evidence.



                      Frankly, I think everyone's over-thinking this because Modern Life conspires against us at every turn, and in defense, we create elaborate rules and regulations by which to live and judge each other.

                      After reading three pages of this, I put on my refrigerator: "Eat whole foods and don't sit on your ass all day more than you have to." And then I skipped to page 13, and by the time I finished, there were 15 pages!!!
                      Add to that "Listen to your body" and you pretty much have everything nailed down.
                      Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who has said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own experience.

                      In the mind of the beginner, there are many possibilities; in the mind of the expert, there are few.


                      I've shaken hands with a raccoon and lived to tell the tale

                      SW: 220- 225 pounds at the beginning of January
                      CW: 180 pounds

                      Goals for 2012: Lose a bit more fat and start a serious muscle and strength routine

                      Comment


                      • After reading three pages of this, I put on my refrigerator: "Eat whole foods and don't sit on your ass all day more than you have to." And then I skipped to page 13, and by the time I finished, there were 15 pages!!!
                        As I said a few pages back, simple is best.

                        I can't imagine Grok anguished over whether he should eat the apple or tuber, and I'm pretty sure he risked a bit of injury when pillaging the honeycomb for it's sweet nectar. He may have sat on his butt all day at times, depending on weather or circumstance, but it wasn't a habit. If we were to mimic our ancestral forebears, we would eat different things and quantities on a seasonal basis.
                        There's a crack inside of everything, that's how the light gets in. ~Leonard Cohen
                        Journal, From Sick to Fit: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread45653.html

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by @lex View Post
                          Add to that "Listen to your body" and you pretty much have everything nailed down.
                          I think that might be he hardest one. It starts when you're a kid and get labeled 'picky' if you don't eat everything put in front of you~ it continues in school when they teach SAD and CW instead of biology and human nutrition. Then there is the non-stop bombardment from advertisers trying to fool you into believing that their over-processed almost food is really part of a 'healthy' diet. And doctors that parrot the same BS because they don't know anything about nutrition either~

                          Amongst all this noise, it's a wonder anybody even knows their body is trying to tell them something

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Nady View Post
                            I think that might be he hardest one. It starts when you're a kid and get labeled 'picky' if you don't eat everything put in front of you~ it continues in school when they teach SAD and CW instead of biology and human nutrition. Then there is the non-stop bombardment from advertisers trying to fool you into believing that their over-processed almost food is really part of a 'healthy' diet. And doctors that parrot the same BS because they don't know anything about nutrition either~

                            Amongst all this noise, it's a wonder anybody even knows their body is trying to tell them something
                            So true,so true it hurts.

                            I remember being a kid and not liking bread,but my grandmother told me to stop being a "fussy eater" and that this bread was good for me.My grandfather took the stance of "If the boy doesn't like bread then don't make him eat it! There's nothing decent in that junk anyway,it's better as hog food.". The real importance of this exchange between my grandparents didn't hit me until a couple months back when I started researching all this.My grandmother was parroting conventional wisdom and gramps was advocating "listening to your gut" as he called it. Freeing your mind from all the BS out there and actually getting back in touch with your body is one of the hardest things to do,but it's absolutely essential in my opinion and can make a real difference in a persons life regardless of where they are in their fitness goals.
                            Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who has said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own experience.

                            In the mind of the beginner, there are many possibilities; in the mind of the expert, there are few.


                            I've shaken hands with a raccoon and lived to tell the tale

                            SW: 220- 225 pounds at the beginning of January
                            CW: 180 pounds

                            Goals for 2012: Lose a bit more fat and start a serious muscle and strength routine

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by ChocoTaco369 View Post
                              I'm not telling people what they are and aren't allowed to eat. What I'm telling them is that if they're looking to maximize health and performance, low carb is not going to get them there. They will not have metabolic flexibility. If you're content with being sedentary, of average leanness, comparatively weak with a subpar thyroid, a low body temperature and a mediocre sex drive, then low carb is for you. If you're looking to be more than mediocre, you need to become metabolically flexible. A diet rich in saturated fat and carbohydrate elevates body temperature, regulates your thyroid, boosts your sex drive, increases testosterone, lowers estrogen and cortisol, maximizes workout recovery, protects muscle the greatest and keeps your gut moving assuming you're not eating too much fiber.


                              I have no interest in subtleties. No one reads the subtle message. I want this to piss people off and shake up what they believe. If The Primal Blueprint was subtle, this site wouldn't exist. It's gained popularity because it's direct and it rocked people's world and changed their beliefs to the core. I hope a lot of people get angry at my message. Maybe it'll make them think about it instead of sticking with the status quo.
                              Wow! haha. This is classic!

                              First off, Chaco - I certainly appreciate your contribution to this forum. I really do. That said, after having seen all of your posts about your carb cycling to "drop the last 10-15 lbs", and then seeing your before and after picture a few months back (I had no idea what you looked like). I have to be honest, I was not horribly impressed with your level of BF and you lost a lot of credibility with me.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Go-Pre View Post
                                Wow! haha. This is classic!

                                First off, Chaco - I certainly appreciate your contribution to this forum. I really do. That said, after having seen all of your posts about your carb cycling to "drop the last 10-15 lbs", and then seeing your before and after picture a few months back (I had no idea what you looked like). I have to be honest, I was not horribly impressed with your level of BF and you lost a lot of credibility with me.
                                Anthony Colpo says pretty much the same thing as Choco and the guy is lean year round,just as much as Mark if not more so. Does this lend credibility to the points in the thread? Do all the people that try to get lean and healthy on low carb and end up with sub-optimal results discredit low carb? You can say that you don't personally find someones results to be appealing,but that doesn't have anything to do with the facts and points stated in the thread.
                                Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who has said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own experience.

                                In the mind of the beginner, there are many possibilities; in the mind of the expert, there are few.


                                I've shaken hands with a raccoon and lived to tell the tale

                                SW: 220- 225 pounds at the beginning of January
                                CW: 180 pounds

                                Goals for 2012: Lose a bit more fat and start a serious muscle and strength routine

                                Comment

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