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  • #31
    Billp,

    I am a long time sufferer of clinical depression (thanks to inherited biochemistry from a bipolar father) and can probably bring some insight. For the better part of a decade, sugar cravings were always so intense that in highschool I became overweight. They would always occur during depressive episodes and usually late at night. Nobody told me back then that this could be due to neurotransmitter deficiencies, which with my genetic makeup, had a higher rate of depletion.

    After reading Julia Ross's the Mood Cure, I am convinced that my emotional problems are caused by lack of serotonin and endorphin, as well as years of a toxic diet. Last summer, I started my first serious effort at giving up wheat, grains, refined sugar. My moods instantly became more stable, but as soon as the winter began everything deteriorated. The lack of sunshine wreaks havoc on me, and is correlated with serotonin levels. I began craving and eating wheat, sugars again. Now I realize that the cravings are a function of depleted neurotransmitters and how many "building blocks" my diet and supplements provide.

    So yes, there are mind-altering properties but it is too simplistic to say that changes in mood are solely due to wheat and sugar intake. Someone like me has to increase intake of other elements, while others can be perfectly fine.

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    • #32
      Hi Catbreu. It totally would not surprise me if diet did not have a huge affect on depression, with some people being more susceptible than others. That was a point made in the Fat Head film, where people trying out one particular low fat diet always got depressed, and how in the 80s there were numerous lot fat diet books and books about depression stacked up side by side in bookshops.

      Wheat definitely seems to have some subtle effect on me. Like this morning, showing how to do things completely wrong, I woke up late due to going to bed to late the night before, didn't have time for breakfast, was hungry during my subzero bike ride to work, immediately fell for the (wheat-based) croissants provided, didn't finish my three eggs than then also had a piazza for lunch. Some combination of the initial wheat and the cold weather completely throws off discipline. The subtle bit is that I think having eaten so much wheat I will have a higher appetite for some now. We shall see. The lesson is to go to bed earlier and have enough sleep, then have a big meaty breakfast that I would have time for had I simple been up 20 minutes earlier.
      Last edited by billp; 02-02-2012, 09:36 AM. Reason: typo

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      • #33
        Originally posted by billp View Post
        That was a point made in the Fat Head film, where people trying out one particular low fart diet always got depressed ...
        I get depressed too when I can't let rip a big fat cheeky one.

        Seriously... I see a big link between low fat and depression ... low sat fat and low omega 3 that is.
        F 5 ft 3. HW: 196 lbs. Primal SW (May 2011): 182 lbs (42% BF)... W June '12: 160 lbs (29% BF) (UK size 12, US size 8). GW: ~24% BF - have ditched the scales til I fit into a pair of UK size 10 bootcut jeans. Currently aligning towards 'The Perfect Health Diet' having swapped some fat for potatoes.

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        • #34
          I find that if I start eating grain products, particularly wheat I find it very hard to stop myself eating more. If somebody makes brownies and I have "just" one, I them end up eating several more.
          http://lifemutt.blogspot.sg/ - Gaming, Food Reviews and Life in Singapore

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          • #35
            Originally posted by paleo-bunny View Post
            Yes, I read once that eating 10 slices of wholemeal wheat bread could induce an LSD-style trip.
            Hmmm, you may be onto something. A dozen years ago I made homemade soup in a bread bowl using whole wheat flour. To make two bread bowls I had to use an entire loaf worth of dough. Both my boyfriend-at-the-time and I finished lunch, barely staggered to the sofa, and passed out for a few hours.
            5'0" female, 45 years old. Started Primal October 31, 2011, at a skinny fat 111.5 lbs. Low weight: 99.5 lb on a fast. Gained back to 115(!) on SAD chocolate, potato chips, and stress. Currently 111.

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            • #36
              Originally posted by paleo-bunny View Post
              I get depressed too when I can't let rip a big fat cheeky one.

              Seriously... I see a big link between low fat and depression ... low sat fat and low omega 3 that is.
              Fixed it.

              Sounds like my (soon to be) ex wife. Always refused to eat the fat in meat. Only put a little dab of butter on pasta and none on rice. Always bought lean cuts. Always veering into depression, running out of energy and prone to distinctly frightening behaviour. Whereas as a fat eater (still not enough back then, and far to many carbs and wheat products) I was always fine. Just pissed off with her moping around and wild behaviour.
              Last edited by billp; 02-03-2012, 03:46 AM. Reason: emphasis

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              • #37
                I've suffered depression and it has always been worse for me those few times I have been really thin. My boyfriend has also suffered from depression and it was while he was on the 8-Week Cholesterol Cure that he had to go on Prozac. Now that I eat a diet rich in animal fats I feel an inner joy and contentment within me, plus I don't get hungry as much. I keep cans of sardines in my office for convenience. No can opener required. Very convenient.
                Female, 5'3", 50, Max squat: 202.5lbs. Max deadlift: 225 x 3.

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by catbreu View Post
                  After reading Julia Ross's the Mood Cure, I am convinced that my emotional problems are caused by lack of serotonin and endorphin, as well as years of a toxic diet. Last summer, I started my first serious effort at giving up wheat, grains, refined sugar. My moods instantly became more stable, but as soon as the winter began everything deteriorated. The lack of sunshine wreaks havoc on me, and is correlated with serotonin levels. I began craving and eating wheat, sugars again. Now I realize that the cravings are a function of depleted neurotransmitters and how many "building blocks" my diet and supplements provide.

                  So yes, there are mind-altering properties but it is too simplistic to say that changes in mood are solely due to wheat and sugar intake. Someone like me has to increase intake of other elements, while others can be perfectly fine.
                  Wow, I had virtually the same experience as well. Went on a Primal-like lifestyle change last March and cut out wheat and most sugars. Lost 40+ pounds and was in a fantastic mood all the time. Went a little off the wagon in late fall and started eating more sugar and a little more wheat/starch. One day at work in November - BAM! Major panic attack from out of nowhere. Had anxiety off and on through the holidays, but this January was the worst. I blame major stress at my job, winter blahs, having no trips to look forward to, and (I think) eating maybe 50% Primal. Over the past two weeks I've been supplementing with Vit D (I live in VA), going back to 80/20 Primal and trying to work in more exercise, but the nonstop anxiety is still eating me up. Might be time to visit the doc but first I'll check out the Mood Cure book you referenced.
                  2011 - The year I went Primal
                  Start weight: 198 / Waist: 32"
                  CW: 158.5 / Waist: 28"
                  GW: 145-ish
                  Supplements: Calcium and O-3 in AM. Natural Calm, Valerian Root Extract and sublingual Melatonin in PM (for lifelong chronic insomnia).

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                  • #39
                    I never really got this from wheat. I got it from good, crusty sourdough bread, but that wasn't the fault of the wheat. That was because it was so damn delicious. If you gave me pasta or sliced bread, I would never go off on that.

                    What sets me off - heavy cream. If I make ice cream - and I make it sugar free - I just love it so much I have difficulty stopping. Go figure.
                    Don't put your trust in anyone on this forum, including me. You are the key to your own success.

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                    • #40
                      The one food I have not ever been able to control myself with? Sour candy, havent had it since November 2010... damn mouth still waters when I think about it.

                      Although now it would be blueberries, I just have to finish the pint, then dip into the next one..I cant leave half..ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhh it can be bad sometimes.
                      Primal since March 2011

                      Female/29 years old/5' 1"/130ish lbs

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by MetalBeth View Post
                        Wow, I had virtually the same experience as well. Went on a Primal-like lifestyle change last March and cut out wheat and most sugars. Lost 40+ pounds and was in a fantastic mood all the time. Went a little off the wagon in late fall and started eating more sugar and a little more wheat/starch. One day at work in November - BAM! Major panic attack from out of nowhere. Had anxiety off and on through the holidays, but this January was the worst. I blame major stress at my job, winter blahs, having no trips to look forward to, and (I think) eating maybe 50% Primal. Over the past two weeks I've been supplementing with Vit D (I live in VA), going back to 80/20 Primal and trying to work in more exercise, but the nonstop anxiety is still eating me up. Might be time to visit the doc but first I'll check out the Mood Cure book you referenced.
                        I am starting to suspect that once you stop eating wheat you lose the knack, and it has a more serious effect on you if you go back. I thought I was fine eating wheat but I find subtle effects now that i just don't get with, say, peas or sweet potato. Its moreish. Bigger stomach. Hungrier the next day. More likely to eat more wheat. Worse mood. Odd. I can't completely explain it.

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by billp View Post
                          I am starting to suspect that once you stop eating wheat you lose the knack, and it has a more serious effect on you if you go back. I thought I was fine eating wheat but I find subtle effects now that i just don't get with, say, peas or sweet potato. Its moreish. Bigger stomach. Hungrier the next day. More likely to eat more wheat. Worse mood. Odd. I can't completely explain it.
                          That's what I find. So now I avoid wheat completely.

                          Last time I ate wheat was in pizza in Italy around 20 months ago. It made me feel sick.

                          Pizza was my one occasional exception having eaten gluten free for around 5 years. I see no temptation to ever eat pizza again.
                          Last edited by paleo-bunny; 02-03-2012, 02:44 PM.
                          F 5 ft 3. HW: 196 lbs. Primal SW (May 2011): 182 lbs (42% BF)... W June '12: 160 lbs (29% BF) (UK size 12, US size 8). GW: ~24% BF - have ditched the scales til I fit into a pair of UK size 10 bootcut jeans. Currently aligning towards 'The Perfect Health Diet' having swapped some fat for potatoes.

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by paleo-bunny View Post
                            Yes, I read once that eating 10 slices of wholemeal wheat bread could induce an LSD-style trip.
                            That is ergotism: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ergotism

                            Not from the grain, but a parasitic mould that can grow on it. Rare today and unheard of in developed countries, as it is easy to check the plant for ergot growing on it. It is how LSD is made, AFAIK. Ergot poisoning is deadly, and is suspected of being behind witchcraft allegations in the past.

                            You are very unlikely to get ergot poisoning from rye bread today, or any flour. One contaminated slice would probably be enough, anyway.
                            Last edited by billp; 02-03-2012, 03:03 PM. Reason: Expanded

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by billp View Post
                              That is ergotism: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ergotism

                              Not from the grain, but a parasitic mould that can grow on it. Rare today and unheard of in developed countries, as it is easy to check the plant for ergot growing on it. It is how LSD is made, AFAIK. Ergot poisoning is deadly, and is suspected of being behind witchcraft allegations in the past.

                              You are very unlikely to get ergot poisoning from rye bread today, or any flour. One contaminated slice would probably be enough, anyway.
                              And ergot poisoned grain has a black powdery discolouration and it smells something horrible. No way any such grains would get through the processing lines in this day and age.

                              I have not had gluten products on any regular basis since Sept 2005 an fl so much better for it. My doctor speculates I am coeliac but I don't want the invasive testing so I'll just eat as if I am. All my symptoms point to it. And Bill, I believe you are right in saying " am starting to suspect that once you stop eating wheat you lose the knack, and it has a more serious effect on you if you go back. ". This is my experience too - there is a particular 4 grain bread roll that I love but lately, after a long time off grains, I tried one and it did not agree with me AT ALL!. A most unpleasant experience
                              Odille
                              F 58 / 170cms / SW 131.5 kgs / Current 112.4/ GW 65
                              following Primal Lifestyle and swimming my way to health

                              My Primal Blog / Photo Blog / RedBubble shop / My Calendars / My Facebook

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by paleo-bunny View Post
                                That's what I find. So now I avoid wheat completely.

                                Last time I ate wheat was in pizza in Italy around 20 months ago. It made me feel sick.

                                Pizza was my one occasional exception having eaten gluten free for around 5 years. I see no temptation to ever eat pizza again.
                                I had a pizza the other day, during my day of temptation (tired, missed breakfast, croissant). My good friend and ultra Christian colleague ordered pizza and I had one too. Cheese, ham, spinach. Tasted terrible. I know it was no different from the other pizzas I have had from that place in the past and liked, but now I taste the rancidness of the surface it was baked on, and the heaviness of the dough. Once you are aware of it it is somehow different. I lived primarily off wheat for getting on for 30 years. A few months of restraint and there it is different. I can see the way this is going, I will end up never eating it.
                                Last edited by billp; 02-03-2012, 05:18 PM.

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