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Fish Oil - Krill versus Salmon

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  • #16
    Well, to agree with God I was going to say what's wrong with just eating wild salmon once or twice a week?

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    • #17
      I would avoid PUFA in general. Eating whole fish is probably better than taking fish oil pills, but grass-fed beef is even better than that.
      My opinions and some justification

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Elliot View Post
        I would avoid PUFA in general. Eating whole fish is probably better than taking fish oil pills, but grass-fed beef is even better than that.
        I'm curious Elliot... you seem to know about PUFA. Just how bad is fatty fish really? I mean, is even raw salmon or salmon cooked at low temps bad? I like salmon, it's one of my favorite foods, I make it into sushi. It would make me sad to have to ditch it for the sake of PUFA.

        I was under the impression PUFA is only really bad when it's been super-heated or taken in excess such as in concentrated fish oils.

        Surely if I'm not getting lots of PUFA from other sources I should be able to indulge in salmon... but how much is too much, do you think, and what would be the main negatives of having too much salmon? Bad for thyroid?

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        • #19
          Originally posted by God View Post
          I'm curious Elliot... you seem to know about PUFA. Just how bad is fatty fish really? I mean, is even raw salmon or salmon cooked at low temps bad? I like salmon, it's one of my favorite foods, I make it into sushi. It would make me sad to have to ditch it for the sake of PUFA.

          I was under the impression PUFA is only really bad when it's been super-heated or taken in excess such as in concentrated fish oils.

          Surely if I'm not getting lots of PUFA from other sources I should be able to indulge in salmon... but how much is too much, do you think, and what would be the main negatives of having too much salmon? Bad for thyroid?
          I don't think cooking is the problem. I know of one study where they fed rats either fresh or oxidized PUFA and found that both had about the same effect. The oxidized PUFA was harder to absorb. The bigger concern is eating PUFA first, then having it oxidize inside you. Then you can't escape it.

          You can find a video on Youtube that is a news report about a house fire that was initiated by a rag soaked in linseed oil. Linseed oil is flaxseed oil. It contains ALA, which is a precursor to EPA and DHA in fish oil. So fish oil is even more unstable than linseed/flaxseed oil. In the story, someone had left a rag soaked in linseed oil in a box with some other rags. It oxidized and produced enough heat to spontaneously combust. No match or lighter needed. The news company tested this by leaving a rag soaked with linseed oil in a pile with other rags and filming it. Eventually, the rag combusted.

          This demonstrates how unstable linseed oil is. All it needs to oxidize is oxygen and warmth, both of which exist in your body. So it will oxidize within you.

          All PUFA break down into various toxins like acrolein and 4-hydroxy-2-nonenal. They also suppress thyroid function. I would consider any amount of PUFA to be too much, though obviously at some level the effect is unobservable.

          Omega-3 fatty acids were once fed to animals in large quantities in an attempt to find a good, cheap feed for them. This caused a disease called "yellow fat syndrome."
          My opinions and some justification

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          • #20
            What in the name of Christ!?

            PUFA oil can spontaneously combust? Are you messing with me?

            What about all the people, and other animals for that matter, that eat a high fish diet? Are bears killing themselves eating salmon? Are fish killing themselves eating other fish? Are the Japs killing themselves with their sashimi and sushi? It... it just doesn't seem right, for a food like that to be so toxic... when it tastes so good and wholesome! Like, why would nature create such an abomination - a food that is poisonous in any amount?! I mean, obviously there are specific animals that are poisonous to eat but an ENTIRE MACRONUTRIENT?

            If what you say is true, I can not in good conscience eat salmon.

            I would like to know where you get your information from so I can look more into this...

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            • #21
              Originally posted by God View Post
              What in the name of Christ!?

              PUFA oil can spontaneously combust? Are you messing with me?

              What about all the people, and other animals for that matter, that eat a high fish diet? Are bears killing themselves eating salmon? Are fish killing themselves eating other fish? Are the Japs killing themselves with their sashimi and sushi? It... it just doesn't seem right, for a food like that to be so toxic... when it tastes so good and wholesome! Like, why would nature create such an abomination - a food that is poisonous in any amount?! I mean, obviously there are specific animals that are poisonous to eat but an ENTIRE MACRONUTRIENT?

              If what you say is true, I can not in good conscience eat salmon.

              I would like to know where you get your information from so I can look more into this...
              I'm very hungry so I'm going to eat now. I'll come back later and post citations. However, two quick points:
              You can find the video of linseed oil igniting rags online. This is not new information. Linseed oil has started house fires before. It's documented.

              Second point: many fish are not fatty. Saying "fish oil is bad" is very different from saying "all fish are bad."
              My opinions and some justification

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              • #22
                Here are some citations:
                Linseed oil combusting: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Ere...Q&noredirect=1
                Fish oil kills men: European Journal of Clinical Nutrition - Lack of benefit of dietary advice to men with angina: results of a controlled trial
                PUFA inhibit thyroid function: Evidence for an inhibitor of extrath... [J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 1985] - PubMed - NCBI

                Studying PUFA is difficult, partly because the literature is so biased. In one experiment, the group assigned to take fish oil experienced a slightly higher mortality rate. Yet they experienced a reduction in "cardiovascular events," so that is what the study promoted. I had to look very hard to find the actual mortality rates. Reducing cardiovascular events without reducing mortality is not a success; you're just replacing one problem with another. But the researchers wanted to promote fish oil, so they were very careful about how they presented the results.

                The other problem is that most studies are insufficient. I claim PUFA is harmful over a long time, but most studies are short. The two studies that really gave fish oil some attention were DART and GISSI-PREVENZIONE. DART was only 2 years and GISSI-PREVENZIONE was 3.5. It was also open-label, which is ridiculous. Studies use placebos for a reason.

                What we really need is a good long (ten years or more, ideally) study with a proper placebo and hard end points (like mortality), but a conclusive study like that has not been conducted. The longest study of fish oil of which I'm aware is the second link I posted. It had some flaws, partly due to poor funding, but it certainly does not make fish oil look good.
                My opinions and some justification

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Elliot View Post
                  Here are some citations:
                  Linseed oil combusting: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Ere...Q&noredirect=1
                  Fish oil kills men: European Journal of Clinical Nutrition - Lack of benefit of dietary advice to men with angina: results of a controlled trial
                  PUFA inhibit thyroid function: Evidence for an inhibitor of extrath... [J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 1985] - PubMed - NCBI

                  Studying PUFA is difficult, partly because the literature is so biased. In one experiment, the group assigned to take fish oil experienced a slightly higher mortality rate. Yet they experienced a reduction in "cardiovascular events," so that is what the study promoted. I had to look very hard to find the actual mortality rates. Reducing cardiovascular events without reducing mortality is not a success; you're just replacing one problem with another. But the researchers wanted to promote fish oil, so they were very careful about how they presented the results.

                  The other problem is that most studies are insufficient. I claim PUFA is harmful over a long time, but most studies are short. The two studies that really gave fish oil some attention were DART and GISSI-PREVENZIONE. DART was only 2 years and GISSI-PREVENZIONE was 3.5. It was also open-label, which is ridiculous. Studies use placebos for a reason.

                  What we really need is a good long (ten years or more, ideally) study with a proper placebo and hard end points (like mortality), but a conclusive study like that has not been conducted. The longest study of fish oil of which I'm aware is the second link I posted. It had some flaws, partly due to poor funding, but it certainly does not make fish oil look good.
                  Ok.

                  It's just that when people take fish oil, they are usually taking a highly concentrated dose, sometimes up to THREE GRAMS of combined EPA/DHA, EVERY DAY in addition to eating the Standard Seed Oil Diet that most people eat. In one of those studies you linked they were doing 3g/day. Refined concentrated supplements often have different and unexpected effects from eating the food that contains it.

                  But... since I really do care about thyroid health I guess I will limit my salmon eating to an occasional treat. I sure don't want my body to spontaneously combust...

                  On the subject of thyroid - what do you think about Soy Sauce - the quality fermented soy sauce that is? Is it true that it hurts thyroid? When I eat it I generally only sprinkle small amounts over a food for flavoring, so I figured in this amount it's probably ok, but I would still like to know if I'm doing something horribly wrong by using soy in any amount whatsoever...

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by God View Post
                    Ok.

                    It's just that when people take fish oil, they are usually taking a highly concentrated dose, sometimes up to THREE GRAMS of combined EPA/DHA, EVERY DAY in addition to eating the Standard Seed Oil Diet that most people eat. In one of those studies you linked they were doing 3g/day. Refined concentrated supplements often have different and unexpected effects from eating the food that contains it.

                    But... since I really do care about thyroid health I guess I will limit my salmon eating to an occasional treat. I sure don't want my body to spontaneously combust...

                    On the subject of thyroid - what do you think about Soy Sauce - the quality fermented soy sauce that is? Is it true that it hurts thyroid? When I eat it I generally only sprinkle small amounts over a food for flavoring, so I figured in this amount it's probably ok, but I would still like to know if I'm doing something horribly wrong by using soy in any amount whatsoever...
                    I generally try to avoid soy but I haven't researched fermented soy sauce enough to say something conclusive about it.
                    My opinions and some justification

                    Comment

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