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  • Carbs

    I am in the Army and have always been a bodybuilder. After a long breakup with a women I was going to Marry and Surgery I stopped exercising as much, just lifted, and pigged out. I got my 6'2 frame up to 239. I have been eating somewhat primal now for 4-5 weeks and I am down to 217ish. A typical day of eating for me is

    6am 1 hour of running, cardio or somesort of Army PT
    8am 5 eggs 3-4 peices of bacon Estimate around 500 cals
    1230 8-12oz ribeye onions, bell peppers
    3 ish handfull of almonds,
    7 8-12oz of Steak veggies, chicken or pork

    Lately I have been sort of dragging on my runs, I am thinking I need to increase my carbs when I was lifting weights a lot I was always worried about mixing energy (fats and carbs at the same meal).

    Right now I am never really hungry but I am feeling it on my runs. I lift weights 3 days a week and try to relax on sundays.

    When I lift its is usally at 11am, I was thinking of throwing in 2 apples per day and an occional potato or sweet potato.

    Thoughts?

    Thanks

  • #2
    Do you run every day? A lot of cardio is generally frowned upon amongst the Primal crowd because it isn't that good for you and can increase appetite. If it's something you really, really like, well, ok. Increasing carbs would probably help since you've been at it for around 5 weeks and should be more fat adapted. But if it's only something you do out of habit or because you feel you have to, you might feel better if you compact those long runs into much shorter sprint sessions, or just take a walk. Sprinting I find generally blunts appetite because it wears you out.

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    • #3
      It definitely sounds like you are burning those carbs. I say go ahead and add the fruit and the sweet potato. (Maybe not the potato since it isn't as nutrient dense.)

      Also, you might want to start eating 1-2 pieces of fruit anyway. Lots of good nutrition (or so I'm told, I'm no nutritionist.)
      Call me cael if caeliumspecto is just too long.

      Also, though I would never say anything I thought would hurt someone, I am not a health expert.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by vitor97 View Post
        Lately I have been sort of dragging on my runs, I am thinking I need to increase my carbs when I was lifting weights a lot I was always worried about mixing energy (fats and carbs at the same meal).
        Nutrition & Metabolism | Full text | Ketogenic diets and physical performance
        Fatty Acid Oxidation
        The oxidation of fatty acids yields significantly more energy per carbon atom than does the oxidation of carbohydrates. The net result of the oxidation of one mole of oleic acid (an 18-carbon fatty acid) will be 146 moles of ATP (2 mole equivalents are used during the activation of the fatty acid), as compared with 114 moles from an equivalent number of glucose carbon atoms.

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        • #5
          The following suggestions could mean a lot more work for you, but this is what I would do:
          Are you in a position to start influencing the morning PT? Pull out a copy of Tabata's research and explain how many benefits there are to doing that once or twice a week. Find some research on recovery days, and make sure the PT training schedule includes them. Push for ruck marches rather than runs to reduce running-related injuries. Become educated and make your case. Most good leadership will give you a chance or two to prove yourself if you volunteer for something.

          If that doesn't work, then with your success with losing weight, could you take on the remedial PT program? There could be a lot of opportunity there to get your name out there, if you're looking for career moves.

          Yes, you probably need a few more carbs than you are getting, and you seem a bit short on vegetables, especially leafy green ones. Maybe I'm wrong, but you seem to throw in "veggies" as an afterthought. I like leafy greens as salads, or sauteed in bacon grease and chopped garlic. The veggies should take up about the same amount of space (or more) on your plate as the meat.

          ChocoTaco said something in his Carb Refeed thread about feeding your body for the work it does that day: If you lift heavy, sprint, or deplete your glycogen stores in some way, feed your body carbs and not so much fat. If you have a day of moving around slowly, or not moving much at all, fuel your body with fat. I understand it's hard to do that in the Army, though. You might take a PT test in the morning, then ruck out (with 60 pounds) to an obstacle course and run that at full speed. Or you might stand on a zero range, walking 25m back and forth all day long. Some days you sit around in the office waiting for something to happen. It's really hard to plan meals around that, as you may need both fat and carbs on a daily basis.

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          • #6
            Have more veggies with breakfast and see what happens. If you are still dragging, add in sweet potato with your pm meal. Don't worry about mixing carb/fat, your blood has a constant mix of both and eating fat will slow down the rise in blood glucose.

            Are those whole eggs you are eating? Are they omega-3 eggs? I would say you are probably low in EFAs if not, which will effect energy metabolism.
            Last edited by Dave Mayo; 12-11-2011, 08:58 AM.

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            • #7
              There is absolutely no problem with eating carbs and fats at the same meal. Your body will only store fat if you are in a caloric surplus.

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              • #8
                lol, this doesn't mean that fat is the best fuel for your body while working out. Alcohol has more calories per gram than carbs as well...maybe people should just drink to fuel their runs. Why don't you put a long distance runner on a ketogenic diet and see how they do.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by jimhensen View Post
                  There is absolutely no problem with eating carbs and fats at the same meal. Your body will only store fat if you are in a caloric surplus.
                  Your body will store energy based on the signaling of the hormone insulin.
                  Fatty Acid Oxidation
                  In contrast to the hormonal activation of adenylate cyclase and (subsequently) hormone-sensitive lipase in adipocytes, the mobilization of fat from adipose tissue is inhibited by numerous stimuli. The most significant inhibition is that exerted upon adenylate cyclase by insulin. When an individual is in the well fed state, insulin released from the pancreas prevents the inappropriate mobilization of stored fat. Instead, any excess fat and carbohydrate are incorporated into the triacylglycerol pool within adipose tissue.


                  Originally posted by jimhensen View Post
                  lol, this doesn't mean that fat is the best fuel for your body while working out.
                  Yes it does. You're completely confused trying to count calories. It's ATP that matters, not calories. It's not possible to perform worse on a better fuel, unless your hormonal state prevents you from accessing the better fuel.

                  Fatty Acid Oxidation
                  The oxidation of fatty acids yields significantly more energy per carbon atom than does the oxidation of carbohydrates. The net result of the oxidation of one mole of oleic acid (an 18-carbon fatty acid) will be 146 moles of ATP (2 mole equivalents are used during the activation of the fatty acid), as compared with 114 moles from an equivalent number of glucose carbon atoms.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by js290 View Post
                    Your body will store energy based on the signaling of the hormone insulin.
                    Fatty Acid Oxidation




                    Yes it does. You're completely confused trying to count calories. It's ATP that matters, not calories. It's not possible to perform worse on a better fuel, unless your hormonal state prevents you from accessing the better fuel.

                    Fatty Acid Oxidation
                    If you are eating maintenance, your body won't store any fat. And even if for some stupid reason it did store fat, it would need to take out other fat stores for energy. So if you are under maintenance you will lose weight regardless of your fat or carb intake.

                    Also, athletic performance is severely limited on low carb diets because muscle glycogen stores are depleted.

                    A quote from this study:

                    Nutrition & Metabolism | Full text | Ketogenic diets and physical performance

                    Therapeutic use of ketogenic diets should not require constraint of most forms of physical labor or recreational activity, with the one caveat that anaerobic (ie, weight lifting or sprint) performance is limited by the low muscle glycogen levels induced by a ketogenic diet, and this would strongly discourage its use under most conditions of competitive athletics.

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                    • #11
                      Eat 200g+ carbs (mostly starches) after weightlifting. Good sources of starches are potatoes, sweet potatoes, white rice. Apples wont help as much, but they're OK.
                      Ye shall know them by their fruits.

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                      • #12
                        It sounds like he needs the cardio to prepare for the army, although I would suggest to run 400m intervals (like approximately 1 minute on, 1 minute off). Due to the glycogen used to fuel his efforts carbs are needed to maintain performance. Fat produces more ATP, but at higher intensities he needs ATP faster, aerobic metabolism is too slow. That's where the lactic/glycolytic energy system comes in, it's many times faster
                        http://thepaleopremise.blogspot.com

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by jimhensen View Post
                          If you are eating maintenance, your body won't store any fat. And even if for some stupid reason it did store fat, it would need to take out other fat stores for energy. So if you are under maintenance you will lose weight regardless of your fat or carb intake.
                          Actually, it's entirely possible to gain body fat on maintenance calories. Of course, you'd need calories from your own energy stores to store body fat, which you also stated. Clearly, that's a zero-sum game, but the calories could come from either body fat OR lean body mass. That's the sole premise behind the G-flux theory - energy partitioning may change body composition even in the absence of a calorie surplus/deficit.

                          Not relevant to most people on these boards of course, as they don't give a rat's ass about meal timing and the calorie balance. Also, I agree with everything else you said about fat versus carbohydrates for fuel, losing weight when in a calorie deficit etc.

                          (I have a gut feeling you knew about energy partitioning as well but didn't want to complicate things)
                          Yeah, my grammar sucks. Deal with it!

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Kharnath View Post
                            Actually, it's entirely possible to gain body fat on maintenance calories. Of course, you'd need calories from your own energy stores to store body fat, which you also stated. Clearly, that's a zero-sum game, but the calories could come from either body fat OR lean body mass. That's the sole premise behind the G-flux theory - energy partitioning may change body composition even in the absence of a calorie surplus/deficit.
                            I never thought about that, but I guess that is true. I would imagine that if a muscular and lean person ate under maintenance but ate a diet that was mostly sugar they would lose weight, but be gaining fat and losing muscle. Unless someone is very protein deficient while already in good shape this probably won't happen.

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