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  • #31
    1



    "I'm sorry but it doesn't make any sense from an evolutionary perspective for the body to not be able to store ANY fat when carbohydrate is not available."


    no one was saying this. they were saying when no INSULIN was available. fat doesn't create an insulin response, but protein does, which the Inuit eat plenty of.

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    • #32
      1



      Oh the science is bad in this one!


      Let get this straight. Fat will store itself with tremendous efficiency in the absence of insulin. I know shock horror! The hormone known as ASP (Acylation Stimulating Protein) is secreted by the adipocytes when chylomicrons (package triglyceride in the blood) are dected, and then packages them (the triglyceride) away into the adipocyte (simplictic but will do for this example). The body also absorbs most of what you eat with tremendous efficiency too, there's no way we would have evolved to excrete ingested foods / energy, so the conjecture that we'll poop out excess protein and carbs is pure myth.


      "Acylation Stimulating Protein (ASP) is a small (mol wt 14,000), basic (pI 9.0) protein present in human plasma. When examined in vitro with normal human cultured skin fibroblasts and adipocytes, ASP appears to be the most potent stimulant of triglyceride synthesis yet described. In this study, a competitive ELISA assay for ASP has been developed using immunospecific polyclonal antibodies, and ASP levels have been measured in seven normal subjects. Following an oral fat load, a sustained significant increase in ASP occurs, whereas after an oral glucose load, ASP levels do not change significantly. These responses are entirely opposite to those of insulin, which rises sharply but transiently after an oral glucose load but is unchanged after an oral fat load. Both the fasting and peak ASP levels were significantly related to the postprandial lipemia. These data provide the first in vivo evidence that Acylation Stimulating Protein may play an important physiological role in the normal response to an oral fat load."


      This explains quite well how you CAN get fat on a low carb diet. Unfortuantely contrary to Taubes calories DO matter.


      The examples of people posting studies of subjects losing weight on an ad-lib low carb high fat diet are usually down to eating less calories overall than they actually thought (Fat and Protein are very hunger curbing). Explain to me why there are thousands of low carb forums with hundreds of overweight people posting on them? Yes I advocate the PB way of eating, but I'm afraid calories do matter ultimately.


      -

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      • #33
        1



        "I'm afraid calories do matter ultimately."


        As I've often pointed out, there were no fat people at Daschau. Eventually, ultimately, calories count. But a big difference is that ultimately those poor souls had no control of what, when, or how much they ate. I'm guessing that a lot of the thin soups given were loaded with undigestible carbs, ie., peelings, sawdust, whatever. Low GI!


        Taubes does say in his lecture that some carbs are necessary, but doesn't delve into that point very much. What he does do, I think, is put scientific - dare I say this? - flesh onto the age old observation of fat peasantry.

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        • #34
          1



          Thanks for the explanation ATZ. My personal belief is that calories do not matter as much as the environmental factors (excercise, stress, insulin levels) and quality of diet (low carb, non-processed foods) but at some point calories do come into play. So once you get your environment and diet quality under control, you will lose weight up to a point. If you stop losing weight then you need to evaluate the calories. That is essentially the point that I am at now with my diet.

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          • #35
            1



            Calories do not matter. I know a guy who lost weight steadily eating 3000-5000 calories a day with zero exercise.


            It's all about the carbs.


            The low carb people that can't lose weight are usually eating dairy and THAT stalls weight loss.

            The "Seven Deadly Sins"

            Grains (wheat/rice/oats etc) . . . . . Dairy (milk/yogurt/butter/cheese etc) . . . . . Nightshades (peppers/tomato/eggplant etc)
            Tubers (potato/arrowroot etc) . . . Modernly palatable (cashews/olives etc) . . . Refined foods (salt/sugars etc )
            Legumes (soy/beans/peas etc)

            Comment


            • #36
              1



              Tarlach, what is it about dairy that makes weight loss stall? I have read that lots of times on here but don't understand it... and is it people who "eat dairy" like occasional berries and cream or parmesan cheese on their broccoli, or people who "eat dairy" like drink milk every morning, cheese for snacks, and yogurt for dessert?

              Eating lots but still hungry? Eat more fat. Mid-day sluggishness? Eat more fat. Feeling depressed or irritable? Eat more fat. People think you've developed an eating disorder? Eat more fat... in front of them.

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              • #37
                1



                I'm not sure how you can eat that many calories on a no carb diet unless you are drinking straight olive oil and eating sticks of butter. That is some serious protein/fat intake.


                I like the philosophy that each of us is an experiment of one. I don't doubt there are people that can eat 3000+ calories and lose weight but I bet there are some people who would get fat on that much food, regardless of the amount of carbs.

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                • #38
                  1



                  Tarlach, your argument means nothing. NOTHING. A personal friend of mine is an amateur Bodybuilder (drug free), he consistently gets lean on a high carb diet - why? He controls calories. Whilst leaness isn't necessarily an indicator of health overall its not a bad estimation.


                  You can't seriously bring an argument to table about "a guy who you know". How do you know he's consistently losing weight on 3-5k cals? Was he overweight to begin with? Whats his activity level? Its all CONJECTURE. Show me some science that calories don't matter, and don't cite studies form the 1950's like taubes please.


                  The low carb people who don't lose weight are overeating. You can't argue with calories in verses calories out.

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                  • #39
                    1



                    I don't fully understand why dairy causes stalls. Apparently dairy can still cause an insulin response, so it may act slightly like carbs?


                    Conan - try it out if you want. Only eat a heap of fatty meat and drink water. It won't do you any harm and you will have your answer in a few weeks. I lose weight this way and so does my wife. I would like to know if it doesn't work for people.


                    I'll continue to eat this way though as I don't get sick, drop visible fat and build muscle nicely. Nothing beats a few lb of steak for dinner.


                    ATZ - I love how you lead with an anecdote and then criticize me out for using one!


                    The two ways to lose weight are calorific deficit and high fat low carb (without dairy). Just because one works, doesn't mean the other doesn't.


                    The person I mentioned was a little overweight, and had very low levels of activity.


                    I have personally lost weight with a high fat, high calorie, low carb diet and I did no exercise other than incidental.


                    Also GCBC is an excellent amalgam of the scientific research from the last century. And our bodies still work the same now as they did in the 1950's (or are you trying to say that the scientist in the 50's were idiots and the scientist these days know it all?)

                    The "Seven Deadly Sins"

                    Grains (wheat/rice/oats etc) . . . . . Dairy (milk/yogurt/butter/cheese etc) . . . . . Nightshades (peppers/tomato/eggplant etc)
                    Tubers (potato/arrowroot etc) . . . Modernly palatable (cashews/olives etc) . . . Refined foods (salt/sugars etc )
                    Legumes (soy/beans/peas etc)

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      1



                      Tarlach,


                      I'm not saying a low carb diet doesn't work, but aside from the intial weight drop on a LC Diet (the loss of water and glycogen) ultimately you have to have a calorific deficit to lose weight.


                      You may well be able to eat a high fat, low carb diet AD-LIB and lose weight, because as I've already alluded to a high protein and fat intake (a result of eatign low carb) is highly hunger curbing, almost self limiting. I dare you to try eat 5000kcal of protein and fat - now don;t twist this by guzzling olive oil or something equally as stupid.


                      However, if by eating ad-lib low carb you go over your caloric requirement you will stall and or add weight, even in the ABSENCE of carbs.


                      Its not magic, its not the bad carbs stimulating insulin. Its CALORIES.


                      Edit - oh and the reason I used an analogy was to show just how stupid it makes you look. Everyone knows somebody who lost weight or got buff on one dietary approach or another.


                      GCBC is ok, its overall scientific inference from the research is flawed but its a good read nevertheless. As for 50's scientists, don't you think research and understanding of biological processes has moved on a bit since then? Or do you still beleive Edison to be at the peak of lightbulb design?

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        1



                        I have eaten an average of 3000 calories a day for over two years and lost weight steadily in that time. I did zero exercise while I was losing weight. My bodyfat is about 11%.


                        Oh, and I just opened GCBC to have a look and the first reference I saw was from 1994, so you may be a bit off in your assertion that it is all old outdated research.


                        Let me reiterate - you can lose weight both ways. If you want to restrict calories then go ahead. I can't be bothered adding them every day and I don't see the point.


                        I would rather lose weight the easy way and I just like people to know that they don't have to starve themselves to get thin.

                        The "Seven Deadly Sins"

                        Grains (wheat/rice/oats etc) . . . . . Dairy (milk/yogurt/butter/cheese etc) . . . . . Nightshades (peppers/tomato/eggplant etc)
                        Tubers (potato/arrowroot etc) . . . Modernly palatable (cashews/olives etc) . . . Refined foods (salt/sugars etc )
                        Legumes (soy/beans/peas etc)

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          1



                          Whats your point? And don't you think doing zero exercise is unhealthy? Hardly "Primal".


                          Look, I could tell you I'm 235lb at 6%, but I'm not. It means nothing, this is an internet forum, so unless you can show me peer reviewed scientific study of people on metabolic wards not adding weight whilst in calorie excess on a low carb / high fat whatever you want to call it diet your argument means little.

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                          • #43
                            1



                            actually, one of Taubes' points is that food research generally speaking is crap, and that more current and accurate research needs to be done.


                            While the capabilities of science may have improved, I still read plenty of new studies that use horrible science to prove their point, not the science.

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                            • #44
                              1



                              ATZ - You do realize that this is a public forum for peer discussion, not a scientific audit?


                              I don't care if anyone believes me or not. Someone may try it and it most likely will work for them. They will be happy losing weight with little effort and I'm happy for them.


                              I guess you will continue to count calories, feel hungry and work out fanatically to lose weight?


                              Once I got to a good weight I decided that it was time to improve my fitness and now I do workout. I'm quite happy with my paleo lifestyle thanks.

                              The "Seven Deadly Sins"

                              Grains (wheat/rice/oats etc) . . . . . Dairy (milk/yogurt/butter/cheese etc) . . . . . Nightshades (peppers/tomato/eggplant etc)
                              Tubers (potato/arrowroot etc) . . . Modernly palatable (cashews/olives etc) . . . Refined foods (salt/sugars etc )
                              Legumes (soy/beans/peas etc)

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                1



                                Ha, there you go making assumptions about me now.


                                You are blinded by your low carb faith!


                                This was a discussion topic about what happens to excess fat in the diet, I told the original poster the facts - i.e excess dietary fat will be stored as body fat. That is fact not low carb fiction.


                                You turned this into pro low carb diet propaganda with little to no evidence to back up your claims other than anecdotal.

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