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Vegan vs. Paleo common ground

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  • Vegan vs. Paleo common ground

    So I have been mostly primal for a few years now and have had great results. At the same time I have seen friends achieve excellent weightloss results using Vegan or similar approaches. Being open minded, i try to question everything if given a chance and having seen people successful with vegan plans and primal/paleo plans despite their radical differences I began to wonder how this happened.

    After reading up on Veganism it seems that the common denominator is simply decreased fructose in the diet. In terms of weight regulation not necessarily muscle composition it seems that Fructose may be the driving factor. If you look at the China study what do all the slimmer countries have in common? Low fructose, they may be higher carb as is asian countries emphasizing rice but the fructose is low in nearly all cases. This seems to fit the French paradox as their carbs tend to be in grain form and not overly reliant on fructose. This also seems to explain the global epidemic as when exposed to western food they receive more and more glucose. Regardless to whether a country was lean based on higher fat or carbohydrate diets, the increase of fructose seems to be cause of the problems as it hormonally signals more fat storage than a similar amount of glucose. Any thoughts on this theory?
    "The mountains are calling me, I must go"

    "don't let school get in the way of your education"

    Shameless Everest/Himalaya hiking company plug http://goodkarmatrek.com/

  • #2
    Fructose is also increased a lot when you had teh frankenfoods and processed foods. The more fat they remove the more sugar has to be added...plus it helps shelf life. Americans are addicted (as was I!) ok forever recovering.

    How do your vegan's overall health feel like?
    Primal since March 2011

    Female/29 years old/5' 1"/130ish lbs

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    • #3
      I don't know, but I'm not sure that the French get most of their carbs in grain form - they do eat a lot fruit and vegetables. But at any rate, I think the French eat a fairly low-carb diet in general. Yes, they have bread and pastry - but they eat far smaller amounts and they eat a ton of animal fat (this is my just my understanding, so obviously facts would be better here....yay, science).

      On an unrelated note, one of the things that I've always thought is interesting thinking about French and Chinese cuisines is that many regions in both countries emphasize using the entire animal, and presentation of the food is more likely to include bones/heads/shells. Mmm...animals that look like animals...

      Edited - I just noticed that you are from France, sorry. So, would you say grain or carbs are heavy in the average French diet (i.e., 300 grams per day like in the SAD)?
      Last edited by SweetPickles; 11-08-2011, 06:12 AM.
      My True Primal Story

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      • #4
        Ja, the fructose is the worst thing, the coconut is the best.

        You know, this is a coincidence. The vegetarians are generally lunatics with bleeding hearts. There are also the ones that eat only fruit, and the ones that eat the soy.

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        • #5
          I think there are many different means to reaching your goals/getting healthy. The reason people feel great after doing paleo is not because they are not eating grain and legumes, but because they are eliminating processed foods and sugars. I believe that good health and weight lose can be achieved with many different diets/lifestyles, as long as the diet you are on eliminates crap and gets you eating whole foods.

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          • #6
            "Weight loss" is a funny word. Actually, I hate the word. I don't give a damn about "weight", and neither should you. And here's why:

            1.) Primal weight loss - the high protein intake and protective saturated fats and low toxin carbohydrates promote body recomposition. The diet is highly protective of muscle tissue, connective tissue, bone density and increases testosterone, which typically leads to muscle growth even without exercise. "Weight loss" is often unreliable because body fat is being displaced by muscle, so you're getting stronger and leaner while showing less "weight" being lost on the scale.

            2.) Vegan weight loss - poor sources of amino acids, low protein intake, high levels of toxins from heavy grain consumption, soy, legumes, vegetable-based oils and "meat" and "dairy" substitutes and massive sugar consumption lead to "weight loss" as well. This diet promotes the loss of muscle tissue, connective tissue, bone density and emaciation due to vitamin and mineral deficiencies, particularly B vitamins. You may lose more "weight" on the Vegan diet, especially since overall calories are kept low from a lack of nutrient-dense foods (it's difficult to eat 3,000 calories worth of lettuce, bananas, potatoes and broccoli vs steak and eggs), but realize that fat is protected better than muscle on this lifestyle. This leads to the "skinny fat" condition.

            So, what would you prefer? To lose 30 pounds on the Vegan diet where 15 pounds lost are muscle and bone with only 15 pounds of fat loss? Or would you rather lose 20 pounds on the Primal/Paleo diet where 25 pounds lost are fat and 5 pounds of muscle are gained? Who truly had the better results? Since going Primal/Paleo around 9 months ago and completely changing the way I eat and exercise, I've lost around 12 lbs while adding 100 lbs to my deadlift, 100 lbs to my squat, 20 lbs to my benchpress and God only knows how much to my legs. My muscle mass and bone density is clearly much higher, so what was my real fat loss?

            It's funny how looking at yourself in the mirror every day skews your reality. I look pretty much the same in my mind today as I did when I started, but when I compare pictures from 9 months ago versus today...ho-lee shit. The difference is incredible. This has truly been the best decision of my life.
            Last edited by ChocoTaco369; 11-08-2011, 07:22 AM.
            Don't put your trust in anyone on this forum, including me. You are the key to your own success.

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            • #7
              Yes, I did mean to say Fat loss and from what i have seen both groups who cut out the fructose seem to show fat loss while Vegans show less in the way of muscle retention either due to estrogen, protein shortages or both. My main point is it seems that in most instances the primary reason for the fat loss isn't low carb, low fat, low meat but rather a decrease in Fructose.

              I have lived in both Asia and while the asian diet is clearly high in carb it seems those exposed to higher fructose products gain fat much faster regardless of their lifestyle (sedentary/ laborer). France i would say is moderate carb but the carb is very often paired with fats (butter on the croissants, oils with the bread etc) and don't seem to eat much in the way of fructose. They have strict limits to preserve the culture as in a maximum amount of english music on the radio relative to french or in our case limited fast food restaurants per square kilometer. They also turn to Coffee rather than sweet drinks and the soda consumption is no where near what i have seen in the US or China (among those with access)
              "The mountains are calling me, I must go"

              "don't let school get in the way of your education"

              Shameless Everest/Himalaya hiking company plug http://goodkarmatrek.com/

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              • #8
                Also, more to choco: i didn't intend to debate this in terms of muscle/lean mass retention or gain as obviously the higher protein/amino acid diet would win out. More of a commentary on my interpretation of the global paradoxical diet imbalances incorectly highlighted by the china study and my thought on the matter. Seems most of the CW people only care about fat loss and although I am more concerned with composition and a big fan of your refeed threads, that isn't the focus of my thought/question
                "The mountains are calling me, I must go"

                "don't let school get in the way of your education"

                Shameless Everest/Himalaya hiking company plug http://goodkarmatrek.com/

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                • #9
                  It would seem fructose may be the key in identifying the biggest cause of the obesity epidemic. The thing is, paleo/primal isn't necessarily about weight loss. It's about living a healthy lifestyle. Eliminating added sugar may be the best change one can do for their health, but I'm convinced eliminating grains (particularly gluten-containing grains) is, more often than not, equally important.

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                  • #10
                    Best way to fatten up cafo animals: antibiotics, hormones and grains. Raw foodists and primals avoid these pitfalls, and the middle aisles of the supermarket.

                    I think a perfect diet would be tons of veggies, some fruits and whatever protein suits. May be just eggs and fish. Or half a cow in the freezer.

                    Everyone, no matter their dietary preferences, could improve their health by eating more farm-direct local, organic goods.

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                    • #11
                      There are no pacts between lions and men.

                      In all of the universe there is only one person with your exact charateristics. Just like there is only one person with everybody else's characteristics. Effectively, your uniqueness makes you pretty average.

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                      • #12
                        Look up "Sugar: The Bitter Truth" on Youtube. It pretty much says exactly what you just said.
                        "All of God's creatures have a natural habitat... my dinner plate." -Me

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                        • #13
                          I think everyone on the forum agrees that grain elimination is beneficial and muscle/ functional fitness is more important than the number on a scale after all using bullshit like the BMI some of the worlds best athletes are "obese". I do think it is important to always question everything and when 2 different approaches work on 1 goal (fatloss and paleo vs vegan) ocams razor seems to hold that the simplest answer is the correct one in this case added sugar/ fructose is the main reason for obesity while other factors are minor in comparison.

                          Anyone have any thoughts with this in terms of minimalist training versus the 5x5 3 times a week? I know i have seem similar results with both but I am a tall hardgainer.
                          "The mountains are calling me, I must go"

                          "don't let school get in the way of your education"

                          Shameless Everest/Himalaya hiking company plug http://goodkarmatrek.com/

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                          • #14
                            I think it is the elimination of most processed foods. I think most vegans who rely on chips, salsa and packaged soy products are fooling themselves about their health. I don't see vegans removing lots of fructose at all. They are just substituting sugary junk for lots of fruit. And I know most vegans do LOTS of fruit, and juices.
                            If people really look at the china study, they will find what Denise Minger found, a wheaty smoking gun. Many uber-healthy vegans also eliminate much of the wheat from their diet, because it is common for wheat products to have lots of crap, too.

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                            • #15
                              lol, the common factor is limiting calories not fructose. You lose weight by limiting calories.

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