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  • #31
    Originally posted by tigerflower View Post
    Wow, the fat woman hate on this thread is what I'm finding totally unattractive. I'm so grateful that there have been people in my life that have loved me and found me attractive at every size. From when I was a tiny, young thing to now, when I'm packing some extra weight and trying to do something about it. I'm not jealous. I'm not a hater, sitting in the corner of the bar brooding. I'm someone who never knew the right way to eat until now. Attraction is very individual, and what you find unattractive at either end of the spectrum, others may find very attractive. I don't even understand the point of this topic being brought up in the first place? Seems super judgey. I come here to be inspired and to exchange information, not to shallowly debate what body types are attractive (answer: all of them to someone).
    I don't think there's any "fat woman hate" going on here. This thread is actually about the exact opposite. There are bitter and jealous people on every end of the spectrum. Just like there are people that think their good looks make them better than everyone else, there are overweight people that think that all good looking people are shallow, dumb and slutty. However, I believe that people are generally good. I believe that most attractive people do not put down overweight individuals, and I believe that most overweight individuals are kind and gentle people. In fact, I think you're more likely to find nicer overweight people because overweight people, simply put, had to "try harder" in life. Things haven't just been handed to them because of good looks, so they generally develop a better personality in the process. However, the OP is all about people that are jealous of others' good looks. These people are out there, and it's important to note that this is mostly out of jealousy. It is very attractive to most of us to be health oriented. You don't have to be a ripped, gym obsessed musclehead by any means. I think most of us are turned off by musclebound guys or ripped, curveless women. However, all other things being equal, who would you rather have: a life partner that cares about their health and wants to take care of themselves, or the person that just doesn't care and will let themselves go completely as soon as you tie the knot? I can tell you right away that if I met a woman that found that unattractive, I'd instantly find her unattractive regardless of her looks. This isn't hate, it's reality.

    One of the #1 reasons why men don't want to get married is they fear that as soon as they do, the woman will cut her hair short. Now that they've tied the knot, it's just easier to maintain short hair, but you'll be hard pressed to find guys that actually like short hair better on a woman. The same thing goes with overall health. The woman that wants to go the extra mile to take care of herself is always going to be more attractive to men, and it's ridiculous to think the thought process is any different for most women.
    Last edited by ChocoTaco369; 09-07-2011, 09:43 PM.
    Don't put your trust in anyone on this forum, including me. You are the key to your own success.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Sue View Post
      Usually if you are fat you are not your healthiest. Also with health improvement comes fat loss. I don't think it's fat bashing. Too much fat is inflammatory.
      I think it's too much sensitivity. Everything is okay in our society, you can't criticize anything and the victim mentality is spreading like a disease. People need to stop being so offended and learn to take constructive criticism. I think this thread has been constructive. I don't mind being called out on things. If people never pointed out my faults, most of them would probably go unnoticed. How am I supposed to fix something I don't know is broken? I want to be the best I can be, and sometimes it takes an audience to let you know how to improve. Just sayin'.
      Originally posted by jammies View Post
      Unfortunately this forum is in a wicked "fat-bashing" phase
      The whole reason why this forum exists is because people want to get healthier and lose body fat. Body fat is the enemy on this forum. How are we supposed to help people lose fat if we can't criticize people for being overweight? It isn't bashing. It's helping. Not all criticism is bad. The overwhelming majority of criticism you find on this forum is constructive. Seriously, if you can't take constructive criticism, you will never improve your health and appearance to the degree you want to. If you can't accept responsibility for your own actions, you are destined to a life of mediocrity and failure. No one is a victim, here. Every health problem we have, WE CAUSED on our own. No one forced us to make the food choices we made previously, and it's our own fault as individuals for not educating ourselves on the subject. But now that we have the answers, we can correct a lifetime of mistakes. It IS doable, and it can be a whole lot of fun. And the best part of all - we're all doing it together. None of us are alone, here. We're like a really big family, and family is here for one another. Some people may need a little more tough love than others, but tough love is still love.
      Last edited by ChocoTaco369; 09-07-2011, 09:54 PM.
      Don't put your trust in anyone on this forum, including me. You are the key to your own success.

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      • #33
        this question is answered as a matter of taste.

        my MIL tells DH that he looks "like a lard ass" even though his body fat is about 9-10% (his estimate). His father is concerned that DH is "overweight" because DH weighs 155 lbs at 5 ft 7. When DH is lifting heavy, he's a leaner 165-70 lbs -- and so FIL spends a good deal of time chastising him for "not taking care of himself" and "becoming obese." (they are hook, line, and sinker into BMI and insist that DH's BMI is in the obese category, therefore he IS obese and all that it implies.)

        my MIL prefers the way that runners look, and preferred when DH weighed 118 lbs as a runner (he looked sick and emaciated). she constantly tells him that he "should" look like this for his health. I will point out that MIL is not a runner, nor is she thin like one. This is all about projections and shaming.

        FIL is a bit stranger. He does not want to ever weigh more than 150 lbs on his 5 ft 9 frame. He often wants to work out, gain strength and more muscle shape. So, he asks DH for workout advice (even though he's convinced that DH is obese) and then follows it and gains about 5-10 lbs of muscle in a few weeks. He then complains that he's "gained weight somehow" and no matter how much we explain that it's due to muscle mass (since his clothes fit, and often more loosely, and he's happy with his body shape, and usually his body fat % goes down as well) he then puts himself on a CW starvation crash diet for two weeks, stops working out (except doing his body weight stuff), and then looses it and feels better. Then the cycle repeats.

        People are weird. But a lot of this has to do with their perception of themselves, which they then project onto others.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by ChocoTaco369 View Post
          The whole reason why this forum exists is because people want to get healthier and lose body fat. Body fat is the enemy on this forum. How are we supposed to help people lose fat if we can't criticize people for being overweight? It isn't bashing. It's helping. Not all criticism is bad. The overwhelming majority of criticism you find on this forum is constructive. Seriously, if you can't take constructive criticism, you will never improve your health and appearance to the degree you want to.
          And some people on here use "constructive criticism" and "tough love" as an excuse to bash people for doing anything differently than they perceive is the best way, and I agree with the poster who said that. There's been a number of threads recently where everyone who disagreed was called "fat" (even though I'd seen pics of most of the people in the threads and it was emphatically not true).

          "Full of anger, she sits alone and broods as all the attractive girls get the attention from all the guys? That's okay, she thinks, all those attractive girls are stupid, slutty and beneath her"? Overgeneralize much? A lot of people here are here because they've tried all the CW diets, or they have severe health issues that have prevented them from finding health. Is it really necessary to use very derogatory language to prove how fit you are? I saw no discussion of real issues in that post, just condescension and generalization. Your tone sounds no better than the fake woman you made up to prove your point.

          People don't feel accepted here, and they are leaving because of that.

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          • #35
            In all fairness, I don't see how it's insulting to say that a fat person is fat. It's not bashing, or hating, it's telling the fecking truth and I think too many people are over-sensitive about the issue. If people don'#t feel accepted here, it's probably because they've either said something stupid or recieved constructive critisim which they couldn't take as a good thing. The vast majority of people here are the kindest, funniest, happiest and most helpful people I know.
            If people are new to this site and start saying things like 'I'm primal but I still eat nearly the same amount of carbs because it's bad for me not to' and they get people saying 'you should lose most of the carbs' and they storm off because 'people here are mean' then I don't think they're in the right mentality to even be here because they obviously don't want to change that much.
            Bunny trainer extraordinaire!

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            • #36
              That wasn't was was said, as I pointed out. What was said was that fat women are angry, mad at not being in the 'club', and only think thin women are stupid and slutty. I also notice that only women were used to make that point, not men. It was insulting, degrading, and a completely made-up generalization.

              And nobody was talking about the "I'm Primal and eat carbs" bit which always gets assumed any time anybody questions the holier-than-thou "criticizers". Like the one guy who recently posted that he's done everything by the book, wanted ideas on what else he could do, and got pages of bashing for not following the plan. There's lots of people saying stupid things, and they are not all the "bad guys".

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              • #37
                Originally posted by IndigoBanshee View Post
                That wasn't was was said, as I pointed out. What was said was that fat women are angry, mad at not being in the 'club', and only think thin women are stupid and slutty. I also notice that only women were used to make that point, not men. It was insulting, degrading, and a completely made-up generalization.

                And nobody was talking about the "I'm Primal and eat carbs" bit which always gets assumed any time anybody questions the holier-than-thou "criticizers". Like the one guy who recently posted that he's done everything by the book, wanted ideas on what else he could do, and got pages of bashing for not following the plan. There's lots of people saying stupid things, and they are not all the "bad guys".
                Your post seems to be highly negative and presumptuous, from what I got from this thread, it wasn't a generalization it was a minority.

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                • #38
                  I posted originally to the person who posted that post, if you read back a bit, as the generalization he was making was exactly as I quoted. And that post was why people were frustrated and expressing their disgust with the attitude that people were fat bashing.

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                  • #39
                    I think what we are seeing is a significant cultural shift in terms of what body shape is seen as "attractive", and that shift has been largely influenced by changing environmental body shapes (those we see around us every day) and media models.

                    Take women, for example.

                    On the one hand, the vision of "perfection" you get in the media is, to my mind, almost utterly unattainable without a doctor, nutrionist, personal trainer and cook on your payroll. And even then, that sillhouette and approach wipes you out --- just look at what happened to Gwyneth Paltrow, for example. I believe she admitted that she "was so tired all the time, it felt like people were plugged directly into her kidneys", and then she got the diagnosis of osteopenia.

                    And if Gwynnie can't do it, then who the hell can? Madonna tried and she ended up being criticised for having muscular definition.

                    My cousin is rather severely anorexic. She weighs about five stone. And she has "that" fashion model look of thin and no muscle. But the girl can't get out of bed in a morning. Her mood swings are crippling. She is lethargic.

                    To my mind, the only way you can get down to such relative size and consume all the vitamins and minerals you need for a functioning brain and body is to develop a muscular physique with low body fat and cut out any food stuff that doesn't carry its value in nutrition content (ie. what Madonna discovered and got criticised for). But what this means is you get abs. You get quads. You get biceps. Yes, you can spring out of bed up in a morning and dance around your bedroom for hours, but you aint gonna have that Hollywood thin, no muscle definition, "prepubescent with boobs" look.

                    Then, on the other hand, we have the "norms" around us; the people we work with etc. Women that would have been seen as overweight sixty years ago are now "normal". Our ideas have become all skewed.

                    Put it this way, someone up the thread mentioned Sophia Loren as an example of a voluptuous figure. In 1955, Sophia Loren measured 38C-24-38, and she was 5 foot 8. A 24 inch waist is slim. At those figures, she would have been a British size 10 trouser size and the waist would have probably been too big for her. Today, if a young Sophia Loren walked down the street, she would be seen as very slim by our standards.

                    Again, Marilyn Monroe's measurements, as recorded by her dressmakers, were 36-23-37 on a 5 foot 5 frame. This would put her at a current British size 8 to 10. She was, more or less, a similar size to Kate Winslet with slightly bigger hips and a smaller waist.

                    One of the issues here is that people look a lot bigger in photos and on camera. A lens puts about 10 to 14 lbs on a person, which is possibly why people assume Monroe and Loren were "bigger" than they actually were.

                    Interestingly, it's quite fascinating to compare Loren and Monroe with Twiggy, the famous 60s "stick insect" model. Twiggy's measurements in the 60s were 32-23-32 ... in short, she had the same waist size as Monroe.

                    I think what has happened is that we are categorically unused to seeing a healthy working body anymore ... be that an example of "slim" or "overweight" and this skews people's perceptions for health and attractiveness. It is a bit like being healthy and having a body that works properly for all manner of physical and mental tasks is kinda a bit "unfashionable" somehow. Indeed, I often get the feeling that doing any kind of physical and mental task above the basic for day to day existence is something "you don't do" anymore, that it is for other people to do that stuff for you.

                    But that could be an impression I get because of where I live.

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                    • #40
                      Uhm I feel that being physically fit is unattarctive to people because for someone like me it means that I look fatter than on a CW diet/3 hrs a day workout schedule and 1350 calorie limit. It is pretty much impossible for me to eat enough to grow upper body muscule and and be what others would consider trim and fit. And, having the typical heavy hipped/thighed womanly figure, fat not buldging there, while my quads being my most succesfully growing muscule, so my legs look huge, while upper body is still not there, and I can't go on a restricted diet to get the stomach flattened, because the first thing to go will not be the belly, it will be the shoulders and bicep (been there, seen that on CW). Plus, guess what, it is addictive to actually not wake up at 2 am starved to death and having to endure hours of debilitating hunger per day. So, to most people I would look fatter and less attractive now than I was when I was over-trained, chronically fatigued and starved till the point of maddness on the CW. Unfortunately, Staci's famous transformation just doesn't happen for me, and I can't get lifts to half her numbers in 4x as much time as she did Yeah, it's disheartening to know that fitness and no starvation comes with being percieved as fat & that one can probably never LGN without serious cutting. SOmetimes I do have hope that miracles happen, but mostly, I am just resigned that I am just not willing to do what it takes to get to the 'WOW!" body fat numbers. I don't know if my appetite is just too high, or my athletic ability is just too low, or is it a combination of the two, but a 23" waist-line is not happening.
                      Last edited by Leida; 09-08-2011, 05:53 AM.
                      My Journal: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread57916.html
                      When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be.

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Joshy View Post
                        These reactions are a) the extreme minority, and b) grounded in peoples' own insecurities.
                        I agree. I have experienced this myself with people who when they were overweight and/or unhealthy had this very attitude and resentment towards "healthy" people. However, when they themselves took responsibility for their own situation and started to eat healthier, go to the gym, etc., their attitude suddenly changed. They no longer resented healthy people. Rather, they started to admire them and be intrigued by them and were genuinely interested in how they lived their life, what they were eating, how they were working out, etc.

                        Originally posted by Joshy View Post
                        There will always be people who mock others for working to achieve something they can't or won't. Like Stabby said, it's a typical human defense mechanism to avoid having to address their own problems.
                        This is so true. It can be seen in all areas of life, be it career, finances, romance, fitness, health or whatever. Some people will always be jealous.

                        Originally posted by paleo_hailey View Post
                        However, I don't find "ripped" guys attractive at all. I like lean, athletic-looking guys a whole lot, but guys with crazy muscle definition, that gym-sculpted body? Total turn-off. It makes me think he has way too much time on his hands. If a guy has the kind of toned body that's clearly the byproduct of something "real" or a skill (like a surfer, runner, dancer... oh, male dancers! Or a man who does physical work for a living) it's hot, but if he has that artificial bodybuilding/gym body that's just too perfect, I assume he's probably vain and self-obsessed. It's not physically attractive to me at all when it looks "deliberate." Just me!
                        So, what makes these people unattractive to you is, in fact, not their physical appearance, but your own assumptions about how they are able to achieve and maintain these physical properties? In your mind, you are convinced that they must must have priorities, and possible values(?), that are very different from your own, if not, they would not be able to look like this? Sounds like prejudice to me...

                        Originally posted by RitaRose View Post
                        Looking back, I was probably attracted to that type because I figured they wouldn't be as critical of my body. Ironic, since the whole reason I had body image issues was 13 years of my overweight ex-husband telling me I needed to lose weight (one item in a long list of things he felt I needed to change).
                        Seriously? People actually say stuff like that to their loved ones? I hope, for his sake, that this was an act of pure stupidity on his part, and that he simply was not aware of the effect this kind of comments may have on people.
                        Norak's Primal Journal:
                        2010-07-23: ~255lbs, ~40.0"
                        2011-11-03: ~230lbs, ~35.5"
                        2011-12-07: ~220lbs, ~34.0"

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                        • #42
                          Being fit is universally attractive, anyone tells you otherwise, they have problem in the mind that has to be resolved.
                          Last edited by dado; 09-08-2011, 06:09 AM.

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by ChocoTaco369 View Post
                            I think it's too much sensitivity. Everything is okay in our society, you can't criticize anything and the victim mentality is spreading like a disease. People need to stop being so offended and learn to take constructive criticism. I think this thread has been constructive. I don't mind being called out on things. If people never pointed out my faults, most of them would probably go unnoticed. How am I supposed to fix something I don't know is broken? I want to be the best I can be, and sometimes it takes an audience to let you know how to improve. Just sayin'.

                            The whole reason why this forum exists is because people want to get healthier and lose body fat. Body fat is the enemy on this forum. How are we supposed to help people lose fat if we can't criticize people for being overweight? It isn't bashing. It's helping. Not all criticism is bad. The overwhelming majority of criticism you find on this forum is constructive. Seriously, if you can't take constructive criticism, you will never improve your health and appearance to the degree you want to. If you can't accept responsibility for your own actions, you are destined to a life of mediocrity and failure. No one is a victim, here. Every health problem we have, WE CAUSED on our own. No one forced us to make the food choices we made previously, and it's our own fault as individuals for not educating ourselves on the subject. But now that we have the answers, we can correct a lifetime of mistakes. It IS doable, and it can be a whole lot of fun. And the best part of all - we're all doing it together. None of us are alone, here. We're like a really big family, and family is here for one another. Some people may need a little more tough love than others, but tough love is still love.
                            I kinda agree with Choco here, particularly the bits in bold. What I would say, however, is that these responses come out of a certain social and cultural paradigm whereby a lot of people have become severely disempowered over many of the facets of their lives. And when people feel disempowered, they feel vulnerable, and when they feel vulnerable, they start to try to protect themselves ... and the victim mentality, along with the chronically offended, the biting comments, etc are part of that protection mechanism.

                            To my mind, our social and cultural environments are now set up to disempower people; it maybe wasn't intentional, but that was the result. Look at health and fitness, how many of us tried to lose weight following CW?

                            I did. I tried for ten years. I could only ever lose about seven pounds, and every time it went back on, I felt like a total loser. I used to wonder how other people did it, and I used to wonder why I couldn't. And I just kept getting bigger, and it used to upset me so much.

                            I can well imagine how some people must feel in this situation who are further along that track than I was. It does get to a point after all the heartbreak over CW dieting and exercise advice where slim healthy people can seem as though "they got the luck of the draw genetically" and you didn't. And that can cause resentment, feelings of vulnerability etc. And you know, protecting yourself by saying "well, I don't fancy him anyway" or "I don't think she is very attractive because she is too slim" isn't half as bad as being downright nasty to someone's face, or spreading nasty rumours about them because you feel so shit about yourself -- and I have seen that sort of thing in my time all too often.

                            I think the key is to give people their power back. But to do that, they have to accept they do have that power and they can use it to make things change for them, that other paths and approaches can work. And I think that is the hardest battle of all. I think a lot of people have become used to feeling crap about themselves and think it is normal; they have become used to the idea they are not in control of almost anything about their lives, including their physical shape.

                            And this is where I would deviate from Choco's argument. People cannot accept responsibility for their own actions if they, deep down, do not believe they have any real control over the actual consequences of those actions. I would argue that years of following CW in all manner of fields can create that psychological result. How can you claim responsibility for your actions when every time you choose to do an action, the result is wildly different from what it is supposed to be, according to TV/magazines/government bods/nutrionists/teachers/lecturers/parents et al?

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by ChocoTaco369 View Post
                              One of the #1 reasons why men don't want to get married is they fear that as soon as they do, the woman will cut her hair short. Now that they've tied the knot, it's just easier to maintain short hair, but you'll be hard pressed to find guys that actually like short hair better on a woman. The same thing goes with overall health. The woman that wants to go the extra mile to take care of herself is always going to be more attractive to men, and it's ridiculous to think the thought process is any different for most women.
                              Are you for real?
                              I don't doubt that most men prefer long hair, but "a #1 reason" seriously?
                              Also, if men knew how annoying and time consuming doing hair + makeup every morning can be for a lot of women, they might shut their traps about preferring long hair. How would you like to wake up 30 or 40 minutes earlier before work each day to make sure your hair was straightened/styled perfectly and looked good?
                              And just as many men "let themselves go" by turning into manchildren who dress like homeless people and can't do basic things like keeping their clothes clean, buying new underwear or getting a haircut without their wives either nagging them or doing it themselves.

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by marqueemoon View Post
                                Are you for real?
                                I don't doubt that most men prefer long hair, but "a #1 reason" seriously?
                                Also, if men knew how annoying and time consuming doing hair + makeup every morning can be for a lot of women, they might shut their traps about preferring long hair. How would you like to wake up 30 or 40 minutes earlier before work each day to make sure your hair was straightened/styled perfectly and looked good?
                                And just as many men "let themselves go" by turning into manchildren who dress like homeless people and can't do basic things like keeping their clothes clean, buying new underwear or getting a haircut without their wives either nagging them or doing it themselves.
                                I think both of you are talking about general losers, male and female.

                                If a woman finds it too difficult to keep a clean head of long woman hair, then she is worthless. If a man finds it difficult to wear clean clothes then he is worthless.

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