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  • #16
    Carb refeeds have done wonders for my mood, which was suffering from vlc primal. This improvement has become the biggest reason for me to do refeeds now, and here I thought I was just working on stubborn BF.

    FYI: I stick to sweet potatoes and white potatoes and eat them post-heavy workout in the mornings, with the rest of the day high protein. I hear there's benefit to evening carbs, but it just doesn't jive with my schedule. Carb refeeds don't give me cravings for excessive amounts, fortunately. In fact, I find it very filling.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Leida View Post
      This tbsp of honey between 2 and 4 pm was working nicely for me so far. I didn't feel like binging on fruit or anything else after dinner, and did not have endless tea after dinner. A cup or two with a tiny bit of honey was just enough, and yesterday I merely dipped spoon into honey after supper, licked it, and didn't want anything any more. And I have no craving to add art sweetener to my berries or quark. And didn't want any chocolate or jam or panty goods at all. I just hope it is not a 'novelty' effect & I can reduce amount of honey 2x between 2 and 4 pm. AND I went on the deficit of sleep all week so far (just unlucky circumstances, not proud of it). And didn't want coffee this morning.

      BUT! Battle Sunday is in just 2 days!
      Leida, this is fascinating to me. Would you share what your typical day's menu is like? Are you lower carb primal or staying in the maintenance range? Are you eating fruits other than berries? This is very interesting to me--thanks for keeping us updated on your progress!
      My Before/After Pics
      Are you new here? Be sure to check these links FIRST, before reading anything on the forum! Succeed & PB 101

      "I am a work in progress." -Ani DiFranco

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      • #18
        I eat most of my carb intake at dinner time. I find I sleep better doing that. Most all my carbs come from vegetables with an occasional bowl of berries. I eat between 50 - 70 carbs per day ( a square of chocolate occasionally). I try to have mostly protein and fat for breakfast and lunch. I have been feeling very good since I get a solid nights sleep eating this way.

        I was always a very light sleeper, waking many times a night till eating this way.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by wildwabbit View Post
          If you are eating primal/paleo properly you shouldn't be getting sugar cravings.
          If your carb intake has increased enough to cause cravings, then I think you are not doing any kind of paleo/primal. Here this means a conflict between Serotonin and Primal/Paleo diets.
          This isn't entirely true. It would be great if this was this black and white for everyone. If you don't have enough Serotonin in your body, some people do crave sweets, as a means for your body supporting the mechanism that transports serotonin that you do have to your brain.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by wildwabbit View Post
            If you are eating primal/paleo properly you shouldn't be getting sugar cravings.
            If your carb intake has increased enough to cause cravings, then I think you are not doing any kind of paleo/primal. Here this means a conflict between Serotonin and Primal/Paleo diets.
            Gonna have to disagree w/ you, and I think most of the posters in the following threads would as well.
            http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread32223.html
            http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread19847.html

            We are all unique, and what works for some of us does not work for others. Good for you if you've conquered all cravings though. There are folks who have been eating paleo/primal for YEARS and are still dealing with these issues... From what I've read, serotonin is often related...
            My Before/After Pics
            Are you new here? Be sure to check these links FIRST, before reading anything on the forum! Succeed & PB 101

            "I am a work in progress." -Ani DiFranco

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            • #21
              http://www.honey.com/images/downloads/carb.pdf
              In most
              honeys, fructose
              predominates and tends to
              make honey taste slightly
              sweeter than sugar. Some
              honeys which are very rich
              in fructose tend to taste
              very sweet, but there are a
              few types of honeys which
              contain more glucose than
              fructose.
              If this is the case, I wonder why honey would be any more effective than fruit? I've read lots about starch (glucose) being useful for raising serotonin (as per Potatoes Not Prozac, etc.). But if honey has more fructose than glucose it doesn't make sense to me that it would be better than fruit. (But if it is working for you, no reason not to stick with it of course!) Do you have a link specifically about using honey to raise serotonin? I'm just really interested in all this! (I feel I do best eating low starch, but feel good eating fruits (fructose). The serotonin stuff has been really useful for me in terms of healing from ED issues, so this is all right up my ally.)

              This whole honey thing is also in line w/ the GAPS diet which may be helpful to others here (thinking about my buddy Horsewoman. )

              Keep sharing please!
              My Before/After Pics
              Are you new here? Be sure to check these links FIRST, before reading anything on the forum! Succeed & PB 101

              "I am a work in progress." -Ani DiFranco

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              • #22
                Originally posted by wildwabbit View Post
                If you are eating primal/paleo properly you shouldn't be getting sugar cravings.
                If your carb intake has increased enough to cause cravings, then I think you are not doing any kind of paleo/primal. Here this means a conflict between Serotonin and Primal/Paleo diets.
                That is simply not true. My sugar cravings increased, as well as depression, on paleo, because going low carb reduced my serotonin level. No fruit, no starches whole30 had me struggling to even get out of bed and wishing I was dead, as well as very strong cravings. Not all our bodies are the same.

                The idea behind the Serotonin Diet, and Potatoes not Prozac, is that eating carbs changes the proportion of tryptophan in the blood trelative to other aminos and so more trp gets into the brain hence serotonin is raised. Wurtmabn's research has shown that a proteiny meal without carbs means proportionally less trp in the blood, whereas carbs with the meal keep the trp ration higher. Eating carbs on their own triggers an insulin release which causes the preferred aminos for muscle to be taken up, leaving trp behind to preferentially get across the blood-brain barrier, hence raising serotonin. It's not about eating high carb, in fact it is vital to eat the carb 2-4 hrs after a good protein meal, otherwise the aminos won't be there in the first place. I don't have the links handy but if you look up Judith Wurtman's research there's lots of good stuff out there.

                The question for me is, if paleo is our natural diet why do so many of us have this issue? I wonder if epigenetics are a factor. If our grandparents and parents etc grew up eating high carb, then maybe our gene expression has been adjusted for that to avpid our serotonin level being unnaturally high, or to downregulate receptors to adjust for high serotonin. Then we were fed high carb from a few weeks after birth (unless you were a very lucky baby). Can it be reversed? I have been paleo for a year now and not been able to do it but I am still hoping I can tweak things and find a way to stick to low starch and sugar (I need to now anyway to treat ankylosing spondylitis), and maybe if I can do it longer term my body and brain will adjust and the low carb induced depression will lift. In Potatoes not Prozac, she talks about how endorphin receptors are down regulated in responses to endorphin spiking from eating sugar, so when you go off sugar you feel flat for about 6 months until you readjust and upregulate. Maybe it can work the same with serotonin.

                Originally posted by FairyRae View Post
                http://www.honey.com/images/downloads/carb.pdf


                If this is the case, I wonder why honey would be any more effective than fruit? I've read lots about starch (glucose) being useful for raising serotonin (as per Potatoes Not Prozac, etc.). But if honey has more fructose than glucose it doesn't make sense to me that it would be better than fruit. (But if it is working for you, no reason not to stick with it of course!) Do you have a link specifically about using honey to raise serotonin? I'm just really interested in all this! (I feel I do best eating low starch, but feel good eating fruits (fructose). The serotonin stuff has been really useful for me in terms of healing from ED issues, so this is all right up my ally.)

                This whole honey thing is also in line w/ the GAPS diet which may be helpful to others here (thinking about my buddy Horsewoman. )

                Keep sharing please!
                Thanks for thinking of me. Interesting thread. Starch is definately more effective for me, although having read the low starch diet book I now wonder if that is partly because low starch makes me feel bad due to die off. I am back from my holiday just today, have read the IBS/ AS low starch diet book and have chicken roasting in the oven, broth defrosting, ready to start a GAPs/ SCD/ low starch 3 day intro tomorrow. Eeeek!

                I was thinking of trying timed fruit or honey once I've done intro, so this thread is useful. I am just hoping I can stick to it, now I know that the joint pain is a potentially serious condition maybe that'll give me a kick, but still, I need to at least be able to ameliorate cravings and avoid the depth of depression I went into whilst on LC paleo.
                Last edited by Horsewoman; 08-06-2011, 10:25 AM.
                Gluten intolerance and hypermobility syndrome http://www.cfids.org/pdf/joint-hypermobility-guide.pdf

                Eat food. Mostly real. Enjoy life.

                Health, energy, wellbeing, vitality, joy, LIFE! Health At Every Size

                "Do not ask what the world needs; ask yourself what makes you come alive. And then go and do that, because what the world needs is people who have come alive."
                Harold Whitman

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Horsewoman View Post
                  The question for me is, if paleo is our natural diet why do so many of us have this issue?
                  There is a lot of research out there stating that paleolithic folks did not necessarily eat a low carb diet. Evidence that we ate starch (we produce amylase to break down starch etc), and many believe we evolved in a tropical climate (more fruit and starch proponents there). Stuff like the work of the Jaminets (Perfect Health Diet) is quite convincing as well as far as the inclusion of starch/carbs as being optimal for human beings.

                  I do think that most of us modern folk, growing up w/ generational nutrient deficiencies and eating crappy diets most of our lives have a lot more stacked against us. That may be why some of us need to tweak and find the right formulas for ourselves, vs. it just feeling super easy once we go primal/paleo. I think if we were born optimal (parents, grandparents, great grandparents had optimal diets and health yadda yadda) and also ate real food for all of our lives, it wouldn't be such a big deal and we'd probably be better able to adapt to higher carb or lower carb variations. But, because many of us are in such a shitty stage healthwise, and our health issues vary per person, maybe that is why some need to tweak things so much? I know some folks do fabulously on VLC, while others struggle and feel awful and just need more carbs to function (mentally, emotionally, physically). All fascinating stuff really...

                  Thanks for thinking of me. Interesting thread. Starch is definately more effective for me, although having read the low starch diet book I now wonder if that is partly because low starch makes me feel bad due to die off. I am back from my holiday just today, have read the IBS/ AS low starch diet book and have chicken roasting in the oven, broth defrosting, ready to start a GAPs/ SCD/ low starch 3 day intro tomorrow. Eeeek!

                  I was thinking of trying timed fruit or honey once I've done intro, so this thread is useful. I am just hoping I can stick to it, now I know that the joint pain is a potentially serious condition maybe that'll give me a kick, but still, I need to at least be able to ameliorate cravings and avoid the depth of depression I went into whilst on LC paleo.
                  Good luck!!!! Please keep us posted! I'm so interested to see how this all works for you!!
                  My Before/After Pics
                  Are you new here? Be sure to check these links FIRST, before reading anything on the forum! Succeed & PB 101

                  "I am a work in progress." -Ani DiFranco

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by FairyRae View Post
                    There is a lot of research out there stating that paleolithic folks did not necessarily eat a low carb diet. Evidence that we ate starch (we produce amylase to break down starch etc), and many believe we evolved in a tropical climate (more fruit and starch proponents there). Stuff like the work of the Jaminets (Perfect Health Diet) is quite convincing as well as far as the inclusion of starch/carbs as being optimal for human beings.

                    I do think that most of us modern folk, growing up w/ generational nutrient deficiencies and eating crappy diets most of our lives have a lot more stacked against us. That may be why some of us need to tweak and find the right formulas for ourselves, vs. it just feeling super easy once we go primal/paleo. I think if we were born optimal (parents, grandparents, great grandparents had optimal diets and health yadda yadda) and also ate real food for all of our lives, it wouldn't be such a big deal and we'd probably be better able to adapt to higher carb or lower carb variations. But, because many of us are in such a shitty stage healthwise, and our health issues vary per person, maybe that is why some need to tweak things so much? I know some folks do fabulously on VLC, while others struggle and feel awful and just need more carbs to function (mentally, emotionally, physically). All fascinating stuff really...



                    Good luck!!!! Please keep us posted! I'm so interested to see how this all works for you!!
                    Thanks . I was very convinced by PHD and so on, after the experience I had with LC. But now I am sure I need to go low starch for some time, maybe permanently, so will have to find a way to do it without turning into the evil bitch from hell! Have already warned my husband though!!
                    Gluten intolerance and hypermobility syndrome http://www.cfids.org/pdf/joint-hypermobility-guide.pdf

                    Eat food. Mostly real. Enjoy life.

                    Health, energy, wellbeing, vitality, joy, LIFE! Health At Every Size

                    "Do not ask what the world needs; ask yourself what makes you come alive. And then go and do that, because what the world needs is people who have come alive."
                    Harold Whitman

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Horsewoman View Post
                      Thanks . I was very convinced by PHD and so on, after the experience I had with LC. But now I am sure I need to go low starch for some time, maybe permanently, so will have to find a way to do it without turning into the evil bitch from hell! Have already warned my husband though!!
                      I actually wrote to Paul Jaminet asking about doing better w/ fruit and sugary veg (think onions, carrots) instead of starch (potatoes/sweet potatoes etc). He basically said if you feel better fueled by sugar (from fruits/veg) than go for it--I think the important aspect was getting enough of those (paleo) carbs to fill glucose stores, avoiding extra work for the liver. Wonder if that will work the same for you going low starch? I've never gotten the blues or low energy when eating 100-150g carbs from fruit and veg (no starch) personally, and actually feel optimal when eating that way. But I know we are all different....

                      ETA: This is what he said:
                      People do vary in their response to foods for reasons that we don't fully understand. Usually food intolerances are fixable problems, but it can take a while to sort them out. In the meantime it's good to experiment to find foods that work for you.

                      If sugars work better for you than starches, then beets, onions, and carrots may be a little more calorie rich.
                      http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum...tml#post399737

                      I HOPE this works for you!!!!!!!!
                      Last edited by FairyRae; 08-06-2011, 11:37 AM.
                      My Before/After Pics
                      Are you new here? Be sure to check these links FIRST, before reading anything on the forum! Succeed & PB 101

                      "I am a work in progress." -Ani DiFranco

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by FairyRae View Post
                        I actually wrote to Paul Jaminet asking about doing better w/ fruit and sugary veg (think onions, carrots) instead of starch (potatoes/sweet potatoes etc). He basically said if you feel better fueled by sugar (from fruits/veg) than go for it--I think the important aspect was getting enough of those (paleo) carbs to fill glucose stores, avoiding extra work for the liver. Wonder if that will work the same for you going low starch? I've never gotten the blues or low energy when eating 100-150g carbs from fruit and veg (no starch) personally, and actually feel optimal when eating that way. But I know we are all different....

                        ETA: This is what he said:
                        http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum...tml#post399737

                        I HOPE this works for you!!!!!!!!
                        Thanks. The problem I have is that starches work way better for me than anything else, except that they feed the Klebsiella that causes the autoimmune problem that's affecting my joints. Otherwise, I wouldn't even dream of cutting starches lol.
                        Gluten intolerance and hypermobility syndrome http://www.cfids.org/pdf/joint-hypermobility-guide.pdf

                        Eat food. Mostly real. Enjoy life.

                        Health, energy, wellbeing, vitality, joy, LIFE! Health At Every Size

                        "Do not ask what the world needs; ask yourself what makes you come alive. And then go and do that, because what the world needs is people who have come alive."
                        Harold Whitman

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Well, glad you figured out why you've been straddling the point of this double edged sword! (No starches, depression/Yes starches, joint pain). I really really hope you'll find a way to beat the depression w/out the starches!!!
                          My Before/After Pics
                          Are you new here? Be sure to check these links FIRST, before reading anything on the forum! Succeed & PB 101

                          "I am a work in progress." -Ani DiFranco

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            My only source on having to use the sugar, rather than fructose from fruit is the book I have already quoted. They explain that fructose IS diffrent, and I did not have any moderation with fruit. In fact, that bit of honey controls my fruit cravings.

                            BTW, still going strong on 1 tbsp of honey a day. Absolutely no desire to have anything sweet after dinner. I dropped the second lick of honey, and just have a cup or two of fruit with my folks, enjoying it instead of devoring it. My weight - and it's all fat (holy cow!) is dropping so fast (for me) that I had to add an extra meal on Sunday to stop losing for a couple of weeks, and let the muscule to build up. I am at 18% BF again, but 122 lbs, not 117 lbs like last time, still 100 lbs LBM, and I am worried that I will start dropping muscule again. So, will try to hold at 122 lbs for a couple-three weeks, and not drop any lower.
                            My Journal: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread57916.html
                            When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Leida View Post
                              My only source on having to use the sugar, rather than fructose from fruit is the book I have already quoted. They explain that fructose IS diffrent, and I did not have any moderation with fruit. In fact, that bit of honey controls my fruit cravings.

                              BTW, still going strong on 1 tbsp of honey a day. Absolutely no desire to have anything sweet after dinner. I dropped the second lick of honey, and just have a cup or two of fruit with my folks, enjoying it instead of devoring it. My weight - and it's all fat (holy cow!) is dropping so fast (for me) that I had to add an extra meal on Sunday to stop losing for a couple of weeks, and let the muscule to build up. I am at 18% BF again, but 122 lbs, not 117 lbs like last time, still 100 lbs LBM, and I am worried that I will start dropping muscule again. So, will try to hold at 122 lbs for a couple-three weeks, and not drop any lower.
                              Sounds great. I think I am going to try this, with the 3 hrs after a protein meal timing like Potatoes not Prozac, since that's worked so well for me before.
                              Gluten intolerance and hypermobility syndrome http://www.cfids.org/pdf/joint-hypermobility-guide.pdf

                              Eat food. Mostly real. Enjoy life.

                              Health, energy, wellbeing, vitality, joy, LIFE! Health At Every Size

                              "Do not ask what the world needs; ask yourself what makes you come alive. And then go and do that, because what the world needs is people who have come alive."
                              Harold Whitman

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Let me know if it works for you. And, yes, the timing is the same here: ~ 3 hours after protein/fat containing lunch.

                                Basically, honey with herbal tea was the only thing on their list that was primal. The one I am using is organic unpasterized honey, it does not say which flowers specifically it was collected from. Back in the old country you could buy hiney from every plant in existence. If we go for a trip next year, I am going to buy a bit of lynden honey.
                                My Journal: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread57916.html
                                When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be.

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