Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Starch= joint pain???

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Starch= joint pain???

    A little background (there is a lot of detail because I've been having lots of "fun" with all kinds of issues)-
    Went primal Aug 2010, felt good once through LC flu, resolved hypoglycemia, joint pain etc.
    Over time began to feel depressed and tired, got severe over winter (I have a history of SAD) and I couldn't come out of the blues in spring like usual despite adding 5-HTP which helped a bit
    Read up on how carbs help tryptophan get into the brain to make seroronin (I used to do Radiant Recovery so am familiar with that) so decided to try adding some "safe" starches ala Perfect Health Diet, added potatoes, sweet potatoes and white rice.
    Depression and fatigue resolved within days (tho I am stuill taking 5-HTP), but joint pain started up, I assumed an intolerance to one of the things I added, as I have a lot of those (gluten, corn, oats, dairy)
    Cut potatoes and all other nightshades in case that was the issue, no change after 3 weeks
    Cut rice, in case it was a grain issue or rice could be contaminated with gluten, no change at all so far after a week.

    I know from experience with gluten that it can take a while for joint pain to resolve but it really should be easing by now.

    Is it possible starches in general could be triggering joint pain somehow? Could a gut problem cause that, that I could heal with GAPs or SCD? Surely I can't be intolerant to sweet potatoes?

    I can't use fruit or even sugar to ease the depression and fatigue, starchy carbs are the only thing that works for that.

    I'm carrying on with just sweet potatoes as my carb for another week or so just to be sure, but if the joint pain is still there I will have to assume it is somehow caused by starch, or that I am basically intolerant to all starchy foods. But without good solid starches I get depressed to the point where a few times I couldn't even get out of bed. It was a nightmare for me and my family and it's just not an option to go back to that. The jpint pain is relatively mild and I can tolerate it but I see it as a symptom that something is happening in my body that I know could have longer term more serious consequences, so I really would like to resolve it.
    Gluten intolerance and hypermobility syndrome http://www.cfids.org/pdf/joint-hypermobility-guide.pdf

    Eat food. Mostly real. Enjoy life.

    Health, energy, wellbeing, vitality, joy, LIFE! Health At Every Size

    "Do not ask what the world needs; ask yourself what makes you come alive. And then go and do that, because what the world needs is people who have come alive."
    Harold Whitman

  • #2
    I've spent the morning re-reading GAPs and SCD. Interesting stuff but the main thing I keep thinking is how much it fits with paleo philosophy. Since the idea if problems arise from starches and disaccharides not being fully broken down to monosaccharides, so they don't get absorbed and then they feed gut bacteria causing overgrowth etc etc. Since according to paleo it isn't natural for humans to eat the foods the diets include- those high in starches and disaccharides such as grains and dairy, it makes sense a lot of people might have these types of issues on a regular Western diet.

    Though how that fits with serotonin issues, I don't know. the only idea I can come up with so far is that we have got used to a higher level of serotonin due to eating lots of carbs, so our receptors are downregulated, in which ase after switching to a lower carb diet it would take around 6 months for us to adjust to the lower level of serotonin. That's assuming serotonin receptors work similarly with endorphin ones ie like the 6 months "flat" period after cutting sugar on Radiant Recovery, while the BE receptos upregulate.
    Last edited by Horsewoman; 07-16-2011, 05:28 AM.
    Gluten intolerance and hypermobility syndrome http://www.cfids.org/pdf/joint-hypermobility-guide.pdf

    Eat food. Mostly real. Enjoy life.

    Health, energy, wellbeing, vitality, joy, LIFE! Health At Every Size

    "Do not ask what the world needs; ask yourself what makes you come alive. And then go and do that, because what the world needs is people who have come alive."
    Harold Whitman

    Comment


    • #3
      Have you seen this - Evolutionary Psychiatry: More Fun With the Gut Microbiota and the Brain (In Mice)
      Four years Primal with influences from Jaminet & Shanahan and a focus on being anti-inflammatory. Using Primal to treat CVD and prevent stents from blocking free of drugs.

      Eat creatures nose-to-tail (animal, fowl, fish, crustacea, molluscs), a large variety of vegetables (raw, cooked and fermented, including safe starches), dairy (cheese & yoghurt), occasional fruit, cocoa, turmeric & red wine

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Autumnrose
        You sound a lot like me...Have you tried light therapy and Vit D? I try to avoid starches to prevent the lethargy, general aches and bloating. I seem to be even more sensitive now that I've gone paleo.
        Yes, I've been using a lightbox for the last 3 years, and take 5000IU of Vit D per day. I get lethargy off starches and have more energy on them, funnily enough.

        Thanks, that's really interesting. Although since cutting starch is associated with an improvement in gut flora as in the SCD, I'd expect a correlation with improved mood if that was issue. My gut and joints improved with LC and lots of probiotics etc, but depression worsened and then was fixed by a couple of days of adding starches. My issue is that it seems I have two opposing factors- LC helps gut, inflammation etc, but need carbs for better mood and energy.
        Last edited by Horsewoman; 07-16-2011, 05:36 AM.
        Gluten intolerance and hypermobility syndrome http://www.cfids.org/pdf/joint-hypermobility-guide.pdf

        Eat food. Mostly real. Enjoy life.

        Health, energy, wellbeing, vitality, joy, LIFE! Health At Every Size

        "Do not ask what the world needs; ask yourself what makes you come alive. And then go and do that, because what the world needs is people who have come alive."
        Harold Whitman

        Comment


        • #5
          I am so very interested in this HW! I'm someone who tends to do better w/ fruit than starches (and I do like how I feel best when having a decent amount of carbs ). I am also someone w/ joint pain issues that I really believed were due to nightshades, although I've been experimenting more recently and I'm just not certain if its all nightshades or just some or sugar (which really does me in too) or possibly starches or...yadda yadda yadda. I have found that I consistently seem to do better on a low/no starch diet though, fwiw. And I've found fruit does keep my moods up and energy high (vs. the lows I feel when VLC.)

          I'll be watching this with interest, and perhaps I'll try and go mostly GAPSish/no starch for fun to test this all out!

          Oh, a couple of other things--getting enough mag (I take supps) as well as enough sleep GREATLY impacts my joints. I was up very late a couple nights ago (cause I'm crazy/stupid!) and the joint pain the next day was AWFUL.
          Last edited by FairyRae; 07-16-2011, 09:24 AM.
          My Before/After Pics
          Are you new here? Be sure to check these links FIRST, before reading anything on the forum! Succeed & PB 101

          "I am a work in progress." -Ani DiFranco

          Comment


          • #6
            One other question--I know fruit doesn't really work for you for the depression. Have you ever tried bananas? Lower fructose than many other fruits, higher starch, but still not in the starch camp (as per GAPS/SCD etc ) I wonder if that would help? I am a banana fan myself (Not 30BaD or anything, but one a day is not uncommon for *me*.)
            My Before/After Pics
            Are you new here? Be sure to check these links FIRST, before reading anything on the forum! Succeed & PB 101

            "I am a work in progress." -Ani DiFranco

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by FairyRae View Post
              One other question--I know fruit doesn't really work for you for the depression. Have you ever tried bananas? Lower fructose than many other fruits, higher starch, but still not in the starch camp (as per GAPS/SCD etc ) I wonder if that would help? I am a banana fan myself (Not 30BaD or anything, but one a day is not uncommon for *me*.)
              Hmm, I didn't really eat bananas when I was trying to do strict primal, as I had them down as too sugary.
              Gluten intolerance and hypermobility syndrome http://www.cfids.org/pdf/joint-hypermobility-guide.pdf

              Eat food. Mostly real. Enjoy life.

              Health, energy, wellbeing, vitality, joy, LIFE! Health At Every Size

              "Do not ask what the world needs; ask yourself what makes you come alive. And then go and do that, because what the world needs is people who have come alive."
              Harold Whitman

              Comment


              • #8
                Saw this thread that talks a bit about joint pain and SCD which may be helpful: (SCD) Specific Carbohydrate Diet anyone? [Archive] - Phoenix Rising Forums: Supporting People with Chronic Fatigue Syndrome (ME/CFS)

                A little OT for the starch/joint pain topic, but the thread reminded me of the Body Ecology Diet (just another take on all this) that *may/may not* be helpful to *you*...Just something else to look into I guess. Your situation is just so darn specific and detailed it clearly is taking a bit more work/creativity/research to find the perfect combo of strategies for healing, yk? The BED includes a couple gf grains like quinoa and millet, maybe one kind of potato but no others, just about no fruit...lots of veg, lots of ferments, good fats, meats of course. Can't remember the rest, but just another avenue to look into....? You need more things to research anyway, right?! More on it: http://www.nutrition-healing.com/bodyeco.html May be way off and totally not helpful, but I know you've traveled down just about every possible avenue in this path towards healing so I thought I'd mention it!
                Last edited by FairyRae; 07-16-2011, 10:03 AM.
                My Before/After Pics
                Are you new here? Be sure to check these links FIRST, before reading anything on the forum! Succeed & PB 101

                "I am a work in progress." -Ani DiFranco

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Horsewoman View Post
                  Hmm, I didn't really eat bananas when I was trying to do strict primal, as I had them down as too sugary.
                  Yeah, I'm wild like that. I've just about always included them unless going vlc and never had a problem. I'll often split one and eat half at lunch and half at dinner, etc. Along w/ berries and veggies and other stuff. I've always found that it's not really easy to go way over the 100-150 g carb range sticking to veggies and fruits, even when I eat all that I want of them (which can be a good amount!) The only times I've ever had real trouble is going VLC because I thought I should, adding in excessive fasting and BOOM slamming back into bulimia in a bad way. I keep coming back to the realization that _for me_, if I just intuitively eat what I crave of meats, veggies, fruits, and make sure to get in enough of protein and veggies each day, I am much more in balance and feel far better than I do when trying to control everything (macro-wise etc). (I've also lost and maintained the best weight in that manner as well...) I've got a large mental piece to my ED issues though, so I'm sure that's why the 'intuitive' way is so much better *for me*.

                  Blah blah blah--anyway, I say try them out and see what happens! Bananas are around 27 g carbs, so they could easily take the place of a medium potato ftmp...
                  My Before/After Pics
                  Are you new here? Be sure to check these links FIRST, before reading anything on the forum! Succeed & PB 101

                  "I am a work in progress." -Ani DiFranco

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I feel like you've mentioned fructose as an issue (irt fruits) before. Not sure if this is helpful, but the bananas got me thinking about it:

                    FODMAP Diet - What Foods Are on the FODMAP Diet
                    My Before/After Pics
                    Are you new here? Be sure to check these links FIRST, before reading anything on the forum! Succeed & PB 101

                    "I am a work in progress." -Ani DiFranco

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Have you tried winter squash or carrots? I find that they don't affect me the same way as other starchy tubers. Potatoes, white especially, do affect cravings. A small amount of Jerusalem artichokes also works well for me, while a larger amount starts the cravings. I don't usually eat the artichokes in the evening because they can bother my stomach.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Paleobirdy View Post
                        Have you tried winter squash or carrots? I find that they don't affect me the same way as other starchy tubers. Potatoes, white especially, do affect cravings. A small amount of Jerusalem artichokes also works well for me, while a larger amount starts the cravings. I don't usually eat the artichokes in the evening because they can bother my stomach.
                        Great recs! And its fascinating that they impact you differently, but also makes a lot of sense. They are actually pretty low starch (winter squash/carrots) and higher in sugar than actual starches like potatoes/sweet potatoes. (Actually, I think the same is true for me. Starches can stimulate cravings for me in ways that fruit and other higher carb veg don't...sheesh, the more I read, the more it would make sense for me to completely avoid starches for a good chunk of time to 'test' it out for myself! )
                        My Before/After Pics
                        Are you new here? Be sure to check these links FIRST, before reading anything on the forum! Succeed & PB 101

                        "I am a work in progress." -Ani DiFranco

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Thanks, I'll have a look at those links FR.

                          Fructose- no sign of trouble with that so I don't think it's a problem (hey, something I don't have a problem with! lol).

                          I do eat squash and carrots regularly but haven't found them helpful with the carbs/ serotonin issue, only really solid starches like sweet potatoes, potatoes, rice and so on seem to help.

                          I'm really starting to think I'm going to have to do GAPS/ SCD for a while, despite my issues with going low starch, because of all the intolerances I have been developing. And um, it really isn't normal to "go" 6 times a day is it. I think if I don't do it I'll always wonder what would have happened if I did! Well, the way I see it is that if I try it and can't stick to it because of the depression/ cravings thing, then at least I will know I tried and couldn't make it work for me.

                          I'm going on holiday for a week on the 30th, so I think I will plan to start when I get back. Will give me chance to get supplies in, store up a supply of broth, make some more ferments etc. I spent the afternoon reading both books and lots of stuf online and have drawn up my own plan based on the two diets and what I know about what works for me and what foods I suspect may be an issue.
                          Gluten intolerance and hypermobility syndrome http://www.cfids.org/pdf/joint-hypermobility-guide.pdf

                          Eat food. Mostly real. Enjoy life.

                          Health, energy, wellbeing, vitality, joy, LIFE! Health At Every Size

                          "Do not ask what the world needs; ask yourself what makes you come alive. And then go and do that, because what the world needs is people who have come alive."
                          Harold Whitman

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Interesting about the squash and carrots, because I mentioned on another thread that I don't find squash that helpful for helping my sleep medication work for me. Have you thought about eating some straight starch, like the kind sold in boxes. I think it is mostly made from corn.
                            Does anybody know what kind of sugar the squash and carrots have? Are they high in fructose?
                            My problem carby foods (sort of in order) are: wheat, oats, potatoes, oranges, raisins, plums, chocolate, sweet corn, and far down the list is sweet potato, basmati rice, banana, squash, carrot and beet.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Horsewoman View Post
                              A little background (there is a lot of detail because I've been having lots of "fun" with all kinds of issues)-
                              Went primal Aug 2010, felt good once through LC flu, resolved hypoglycemia, joint pain etc.
                              Over time began to feel depressed and tired, got severe over winter (I have a history of SAD) and I couldn't come out of the blues in spring like usual despite adding 5-HTP which helped a bit
                              Read up on how carbs help tryptophan get into the brain to make seroronin (I used to do Radiant Recovery so am familiar with that) so decided to try adding some "safe" starches ala Perfect Health Diet, added potatoes, sweet potatoes and white rice.
                              Depression and fatigue resolved within days (tho I am stuill taking 5-HTP), but joint pain started up, I assumed an intolerance to one of the things I added, as I have a lot of those (gluten, corn, oats, dairy)
                              Cut potatoes and all other nightshades in case that was the issue, no change after 3 weeks
                              Cut rice, in case it was a grain issue or rice could be contaminated with gluten, no change at all so far after a week.

                              I know from experience with gluten that it can take a while for joint pain to resolve but it really should be easing by now.

                              Is it possible starches in general could be triggering joint pain somehow? Could a gut problem cause that, that I could heal with GAPs or SCD? Surely I can't be intolerant to sweet potatoes?

                              I can't use fruit or even sugar to ease the depression and fatigue, starchy carbs are the only thing that works for that.

                              I'm carrying on with just sweet potatoes as my carb for another week or so just to be sure, but if the joint pain is still there I will have to assume it is somehow caused by starch, or that I am basically intolerant to all starchy foods. But without good solid starches I get depressed to the point where a few times I couldn't even get out of bed. It was a nightmare for me and my family and it's just not an option to go back to that. The jpint pain is relatively mild and I can tolerate it but I see it as a symptom that something is happening in my body that I know could have longer term more serious consequences, so I really would like to resolve it.
                              Gosh, I seem to have the exact same issues as yourself! I know I feel better "tummy" wise without the starches, but then I get really depressed/lacking energy and only the starches seem to work to get me back to funtioning (I believe this has something to do with me having Chronic Fatigue Syndrome - I have read that after having CFS the mitachondria have issues coverting energy from other sources than carbs). Fruit also doesn't assist me much with the depression but in saying that it doesn't seem to affect my digestive issues at all either. I also have AS which is a form of inflammatory arthritis and a starch free diet is often used to help eleviate the pain but I have huge issues trying to stick with it due to the severe lack of energy I suffer. Apart from living on water, fresh air and sunshine I am beginning to run out of ideas myself!! I have intolerances to lactose and gluten and I also have huge issues metabolising fats properly as well as the beginning of kidney issues so for me that would mean practically no dairy (lactose), no wheat/grains (gluten), minimal fats (digestion issues), minimal proteins (kidney function), so what the hell is left???? Back to the water, fresh air and sunshine I think!
                              Last edited by TARNIP; 07-16-2011, 05:42 PM.

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X