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  • Blood Acidity & Bone Loss

    I listened to a vegan someone linked here ranting about how eating animal protein increases blood acidity and leads to osteoporosis because the body deals with acidity by leaching minerals from the bones into the blood to restore pH balance (per the vid I watched, calcium isn't used but it is lost in the process).

    There's plenty online about this phenomena and how the body does use minerals from the bones to deal with blood acidity.

    What I can't find is how much blood acidity is actually tied to consuming animal protein.

    I know, any post that begins with the words "I listened to a vegan" just begs someone to ask "Why the hell did you do that?"

    So I figured I'd ask you guys for a better shot at the actual facts.
    The two constants in my life are a clean mind and dirty knees.


    Everything else is subject to change without notice.



  • #2
    Can't help. Only suggestion I have is that if half an hour of googling turns up nothing credible you are either a lousy researcher or hunting a snark
    Four years Primal with influences from Jaminet & Shanahan and a focus on being anti-inflammatory. Using Primal to treat CVD and prevent stents from blocking free of drugs.

    Eat creatures nose-to-tail (animal, fowl, fish, crustacea, molluscs), a large variety of vegetables (raw, cooked and fermented, including safe starches), dairy (cheese & yoghurt), occasional fruit, cocoa, turmeric & red wine

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    • #3
      Originally posted by peril View Post
      Can't help. Only suggestion I have is that if half an hour of googling turns up nothing credible you are either a lousy researcher or hunting a snark
      Google nets me a one sentence maybeism in Wikipedia and a finger pointing at the China Study book, but doesn't show me any science or give any real examples. Maybe it is a Snark.

      I always wanted to ride a snark.
      The two constants in my life are a clean mind and dirty knees.


      Everything else is subject to change without notice.


      Comment


      • #4
        This has been a hot potato for a while. No one is really sure what is going on. The body deposits and re-uses a large amount of calcium from the bones every day. Normal pH regulation shouldn't have an effect on the final bone density, at the end of the day. An argument that has gotten some traction based on studies where they had people provide diet information and collected their urine over a period of time like 24 hours is that it is just the sucky American diet that is to blame. One of the proponents of this theory (I don't remember his name, but there was a New York Times interview with him a while ago and he has been on The People's Pharmacy) is that if we could just get the average American to eat one more vegetable serving a day (right now the average vegetable serving is around 2, mainly potatoes, so if you get it to #3, not a potato) the osteoporosis rate would plummet. If one is following primal, one should already be getting more than those 3 servings, so you're good.

        There is one other big issue, which is the sale of "osteopenia" as a condition requiring treatment. This has made everyone foam at the mouth about bone density where it didn't really need to happen. There was also a great NYT article about this issue, but if you google something like osteopenia hoax or fraud or something you'll find stuff about it.
        “In God we trust; all others must bring data.” W. Edwards Deming
        Blogging at http://loafingcactus.com

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        • #5
          Yeah, it's one of those things that "they" say, without any evidence at all. Their entire line of reasoning is weak. If the ratio of animal:vegetable were responsible in an adult for bone loss, why does the same ratio (or an even more animal-centric one) in children result in growth and a large increase in bone mass? The body knows how to sequester an excess of many things: it's why we urinate, defecate, breathe....

          EDIT:
          Originally posted by loafingcactus View Post
          This has been a hot potato for a while. No one is really sure what is going on. The body deposits and re-uses a large amount of calcium from the bones every day. Normal pH regulation shouldn't have an effect on the final bone density, at the end of the day. An argument that has gotten some traction based on studies where they had people provide diet information and collected their urine over a period of time like 24 hours is that it is just the sucky American diet that is to blame. One of the proponents of this theory (I don't remember his name, but there was a New York Times interview with him a while ago and he has been on The People's Pharmacy) is that if we could just get the average American to eat one more vegetable serving a day (right now the average vegetable serving is around 2, mainly potatoes, so if you get it to #3, not a potato) the osteoporosis rate would plummet. If one is following primal, one should already be getting more than those 3 servings, so you're good.
          Other very important factors are vitamin A, D, and K2 status (only available from animals! GASP!) and load-bearing exercise.
          Last edited by AndreaReina; 07-11-2011, 05:46 AM.

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          • #6
            Yeah, I don't know about blood acidity, but if you're talking about the bald guy, he was touting a lot of emotional footage and plain bad science.

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            • #7
              some days i wonder if our level of civilization is possible without a large number of dunces
              Optimum Health powered by Actualized Self-Knowledge.

              Predator not Prey
              Paleo Ketogenic Lifestyle

              CW 315 | SW 506
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              • #8
                The trouble with civilization is that, in large part, it cuts out darwinism, and those who would once have been naturally de-selected remain in the gene pool. And the stupid thrive.

                *wanders off whistling and appropriate Green Day song.*

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by DinosaurKisses View Post
                  I listened to a vegan someone linked here ranting about how eating animal protein increases blood acidity and leads to osteoporosis because the body deals with acidity by leaching minerals from the bones into the blood to restore pH balance (per the vid I watched, calcium isn't used but it is lost in the process).
                  Well, that's their theory. But in practice people like Plains Indians who ate nothing much other than meat had strong skeletons (unlike Indians on almost vegetarian diets).

                  Take another example: the skeletons of ancient Scythians who were pastoralists living off meat and dairy products are far more robust than those of modern humans.

                  Anthropological evidence available to us so far indicates that the Scythians were relatively tall. This tallness is particularly noticeable in warrior burials and those of men of the upper social stratum, who would seem tall even today. They are often over 6 ft (1.80 m) in height, sometimes over 6 ft 3 in. (1.90 m), and have occasionally even been known to exceed 6ft 6 in. (2 m). There is a substantial difference in height between members of the upper social stratum and the ordinary people of, on average, 4–6 in. (10–15 cm). Where men are concerned, height can thus without doubt be interpreted as a mark of social status. This phenomenon can be observed all the way to the eastern extremity of the Scythian world. In the Altai graves all those interred who were from the upper social stratum can be distinguished by their height and powerful bodies. All these men are between 5 ft 8 in. (1.76 m) and 6 ft (1.80 m) tall; the men in the common graves are on average 5 ft 4 in. (1.64 m) tall. Anthropological research has established that these skeletons differ from those of today in their longer arm and leg bones and a generally stronger bone formation.
                  How could these things be true if vegetarians were right? Osteoporosis is probably down to sugar, alcohol, and excessive coffee-drinking among other factors.

                  Here's a Sally Fallon/Mary G. Enig piece on the matter:

                  Dem Bones: Do High Protein Diets Cause Bone Loss?

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                  • #11
                    I think it's fair that when correlation after correlation with poor health outcomes and diets happens to include these incredibly low vegetable consumption numbers, even when that's not the correlation being followed, that there's some smoke under the fire.

                    Also, it's a little... Shall we say funny?... Where the anti-vegetarianism overshoots and ends up being anti Primal Blueprint. Is it that we have a group that thinks the PB is a bad idea, or is it just an overshoots of rhetoric?
                    “In God we trust; all others must bring data.” W. Edwards Deming
                    Blogging at http://loafingcactus.com

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                    • #12
                      Protein causing bone loss is as rational as the vegan comment: "Well, would you eat your dog?" No, I love my dog, buuuuut I'd eat your dog.
                      Don't be a paleotard...

                      http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/nut...oxidation.html

                      http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/nut...torage-qa.html

                      http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat...rn-fat-qa.html

                      http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/nut...-you-need.html

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                      • #13
                        some days i wonder if our level of civilization is possible without a large number of dunces
                        The term population density has more than one meaning. :-)
                        Note the adult Inuit suffered from osteporosis(yes pre white person) but their diet was very low carb for life. SO there may be a little to this theory but I think as long as you are getting some green veggies and sun exposure I wouldn't worry about it.

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                        • #14
                          Originally posted by twa2w View Post
                          Note the adult Inuit suffered from osteporosis(yes pre white person) but their diet was very low carb for life.
                          Link to verify this? Inuits and other native Americans have been living under "white man" culture for a long time now, and their diets changed accordingly. A quick Google search overview only brings up conjecture and no studies pre-white-man-diet. (The only study found was from 1974). Probably like other native Americans, once introduced to bread, sugar and alcohol and a drastically changed (more sedentary and purpose-less) lifestyle, their health went to shit.
                          Positively Radical — Pigeonholes are for Pigeons!

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                          • #15
                            Originally posted by twa2w View Post
                            The term population density has more than one meaning. :-)
                            Note the adult Inuit suffered from osteporosis(yes pre white person) but their diet was very low carb for life. SO there may be a little to this theory but I think as long as you are getting some green veggies and sun exposure I wouldn't worry about it.
                            As white people are the only people to create studies.... how can you have a study pre white people?
                            Optimum Health powered by Actualized Self-Knowledge.

                            Predator not Prey
                            Paleo Ketogenic Lifestyle

                            CW 315 | SW 506
                            Current Jeans 46 | Starting Jeans 66


                            Contact me: quelsen@gmail.com

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