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OK wait. Carbs vs. Nuts and Fruit

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  • OK wait. Carbs vs. Nuts and Fruit

    Hi All,
    I'm a newbie here to this primal thing. But I've read Mark's book and done some research, so hope y'all don't mind a stupid question:

    Mark says to eat between 50-100 grams of carbs a day for optimum "sweet spot" fat loss. Mark also encourages us to eat nuts and fruits. The word "generously" is used.

    I've been tracking my carbs using LoseIt (superior to FitDay) and BY FAR the #1 source of carbs in my diet is... (drum roll)... nuts and fruit! In fact, nuts have about 1g of carbs for every 1g of protein. And a single medium apple has 25g of carbs! (Now I know why this website is "The Daily Apple" - singular.)

    This strikes me as somewhat problematic. A big selling point of this diet/lifestyle is weight loss. Fat will "melt off" if you hit the sweet spot, right? Or I guess, not if you eat fruit?

    And this may be a sacred cow here, but I've been on non-low(er) carb diets (40c/40p/20f) with restricted caloric intake, and lost weight too. 2 pounds a week, in fact.

    So really now, is it about carb restriction, or calorie restriction?

    I know I'm probably coming off as standoffish about these questions, but they seem like big contradictions. And figured with such an experienced community, someone can answer this well, with good info, and really help me "grok" it in the Heinlein sense.

    Thanks in advance!!



    Note 1: I've cut grains and sugars from my diet 100%. Wasn't a challenge, luckily. I cut all sugar, white bread, soda, and most processed foods awhile ago.

    Note 2: I get the whole "even energy levels" thing. I've experienced it firsthand, and I love not being sleepy through my afternoons at work. So far, that's the biggest piece of evidence I've seen supporting the diet/lifestyle.

    Note 3: I get the evolutionary theory behind it as well. I'm not questioning the theory, just the practice.

  • #2
    Originally posted by markoso View Post
    This strikes me as somewhat problematic. A big selling point of this diet/lifestyle is weight loss. Fat will "melt off" if you hit the sweet spot, right?
    Fatty Acid Oxidation

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    • #3
      Ahh, I love a good scientific study. I look forward to digging into that. Thankyou for the substance!

      Unfortunately, it leaves out the most important part of my question:

      "A big selling point of this diet/lifestyle is weight loss. Fat will 'melt off' if you hit the sweet spot, right? Or I guess, not if you eat fruit?"

      Apologies if the answer is in the text. I'm not a scientist, and I'm afraid I'll miss it even if I go looking for it.

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      • #4
        Delete
        Last edited by Sue; 06-24-2011, 01:36 AM.

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        • #5
          You can still eat fruit and be within your sweet spot.
          Its about carb restriction and caloric restriction. Some have to count calories while others just eat to satiety and calories take care of themself.
          Last edited by Sue; 06-24-2011, 01:36 AM.

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          • #6
            i dont think you need to worry about caloric restriction, there is plenty of evidence out there to suggest that its the quality not the quantity of what you eat. In Gary Tuabe's book "Good calories bad calories" he talks about if somebody grew really really tall you would assume that they had something wrong with their hormones, and apparently its the same for growing outward. You don't get fat because you eat too much you get fat because your insulin levels are too high, and insulin is secreted in response to carbohydrate consumption. This is why you get some guys who eat no more than anyone else but become obese and some guys who eat tons of crap and never put on a pound....its because they are better at regulating the hormone insulin....so i wouldnt worry about calories, as long as you keep your insulin levels low by keeping carbohydrates in that "sweet spot" then you wont get fat since it is impossible to store fat without insulin.

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            • #7
              carb and calorie is only a part of it. An important part, but sooooo not the whole story. It all works in sync.

              And it's 'an apple a day keeps the doctor away' right? This is LOWER carb not LOW carb. And it's so very much lower than a typical diet! You'll find some PBers eat very little or even no fruit - some do go very low carb. I was doing low, but now am middling - I'll have one piece of fresh fruit (an apple or banana), a handful of nuts per day, and maybe a little (talking maybe a tablespoon?) of dried fruit some days. Depending on your veggie choices you should be able to have two pieces of fruit and a handful of nuts without blowing your carbs out too far.

              I had a look on a couple of carb counters, most nuts only have a few grams of carbs per tablespoon - not too bad really.
              If we’re not supposed to eat animals, how come they’re made out of meat? Tom Snyder

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              • #8
                Your percentage actually is lower carb than the standard dietetic advice of 50%. In most studies, low carb is defined as 35%. If that works for you, fine, enjoy your natural candy. For me it causes obesity, diabetes and reactive hypoglycemia so I'm at under 10%. Whatever works.
                “In God we trust; all others must bring data.” W. Edwards Deming
                Blogging at http://loafingcactus.com

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                • #9
                  I eat some fruit every day. At this time of year, it's hard for me not to. If I have an afternoon snack, it's half an apple with a tbsp of almond butter, then I have about 3/4 cup of frozen berries with coconut milk after supper. Sometimes I nibble on fresh strawberries, raspberries, pineapple, half an orange or a plum or nectarine if I have them in the house. If I have nuts, I try to limit my helping to about 10 pieces once a day.

                  I'm losing a steady 5 lbs a month, but I came to the PB with very few underlying health issues (basically just overweight with GERD) not like some of our members who have a lot more to deal with.
                  Newcomers: If you haven't read the book, at least read this thread ... and all the links!
                  http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread17722.html

                  F/49/5'4"
                  Jan. 1, 2011: 186.6 lbs PBSW Mar. 1, 2011: 175.8 lbs
                  CW: 146.8 lbs
                  GW 140 lbs
                  A proud member of PETA: People Eating Tasty Animals

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                  • #10
                    Not all fruit is created equal. Four cups of strawberries has 50 g of carbs, which is only half of what Mark recommends for the sweet spot. And that's a lot of strawberries. 2 cups of blueberries is about 50 g of carbs...again, that's a lot of blueberries. Don't confuse the word "generously" with "all you can eat"
                    Heather and the hounds - Make a Fast Friend, Adopt a Greyhound!

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by owena View Post
                      i dont think you need to worry about caloric restriction, there is plenty of evidence out there to suggest that its the quality not the quantity of what you eat. In Gary Tuabe's book "Good calories bad calories" he talks about if somebody grew really really tall you would assume that they had something wrong with their hormones, and apparently its the same for growing outward. You don't get fat because you eat too much you get fat because your insulin levels are too high, and insulin is secreted in response to carbohydrate consumption. This is why you get some guys who eat no more than anyone else but become obese and some guys who eat tons of crap and never put on a pound....its because they are better at regulating the hormone insulin....so i wouldnt worry about calories, as long as you keep your insulin levels low by keeping carbohydrates in that "sweet spot" then you wont get fat since it is impossible to store fat without insulin.
                      Owena, not always that simple. Some have to still count calories for weight loss. Excess quality foods can equal excess calories and weight stall or gain. I've read Taubes etc and though I respect him don't think he has all the answers.

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                      • #12
                        If you have weight to lose, you need to minimize the carbs to 50g or lower per day. I was at 20g for the first eight months or so and I dropped over 100 pounds. Every body is a little different and will react a little differently, but this one is pretty much a constant. Ditch the fruit and minimize the nuts.
                        Primal eating in a nutshell: If you are hungry, eat Primal food until you are satisfied (not stuffed). Then stop. Wait until you're hungry again. Repeat.

                        Looking for my Cholesterol Primer? Here it is: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum...mer-(Attempt-2)


                        Ditch the scale!: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread33283.html

                        My Success Story: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread30615.html

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                        • #13
                          I agree with Griff on this one. I've experimented around and when I include fruit and nuts, not much happens...remove them and the weight comes off quicker.

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                          • #14
                            I agree with Griff and Nomad1. I have to ditch the nuts. Have stopped the fruit except for less than cup berries, or a slice melon after dinner. It's the nuts that are getting me right now. (Oh, and the cheese enemy but that's not part of ur question.)
                            Wisdom begins in the recognition of how little we know.

                            (teaching of Socrates)

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                            • #15
                              Hi Everyone,
                              Thanks for your kind responses.

                              Sadly, I'm a bit disappointed. I hoped I was wrong. I hoped I had missed something. I hoped that the guy telling me to eat "plentiful" fruits and nuts would not be telling me 2 seconds later to avoid the caloric content contained within them to enjoy some of the key benefits of his lifestyle. Because without fruits and nuts (and dairy and grains and sugars), the list of foods you can eat for weight-loss is this:

                              - Eggs
                              - Fish/Fowl/Meat
                              - Vegetables

                              That just doesn't seem right to me.

                              But I'm not your normal "Korg." I went through a real weight-loss program years ago with a nutritionist, where you could eat pretty much everything - as long as you kept it to (in my case) 2200 calories or less. That's when I learned to cut out soda, red meat, etc. And I felt great!

                              1 week into that program, I felt like my body was running "backwards." I don't know how to describe it, but it felt like the fat wasn't being "melted" off, rather vacuumed off from the inside. Unbelievable feeling.

                              In fact, the reason why I came here is because 1 week into the primal diet, I haven't felt that. In fact, with the exception of consistent energy levels (admittedly an awesome benefit!), I haven't felt anything at all. I had this notion that maybe it takes longer, but the body doesn't lie, and I had a shorter distance to go to "primal" than most.

                              So then I took a closer look, and realized that fruit and nuts are probably the culprit, but I'm not eating them to excess. 2oz of nuts, an apple, a nectarine, and some blueberries (1 modest piece of fruit per meal, for those keeping score) and right there i'm at about 75g - but you'd be surprised what else contains trace carbs throughout your day.

                              The dirty secret of the diet industry, I think, is that all diets are the same. Eat less than you burn. For weight-loss purposes, it doesn't matter if it's McDonalds or cabbage. 2000 calories is 2000 calories, but that doesn't sell books.

                              Note that I'm leaving out the whole discussion of insulin and longevity all that. Those are secondary benefits to be achieved once homeostasis is reached. And I'll definitely be adopting a lower carb lifestyle than I had.

                              But I'm still left feeling like a very important line was not drawn in the book. I wanted to be wrong about that.

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