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  • troubled vegetarian..please help..



    Hello all..i'm new to this post and found out about while doing a search through amazon.com...thank you in advance for your help...


    i always feel and look better when i switch back to eating meat...forgeting for a moment about the social aspects of it, i'm scared as hell about the chemicals they pump into animals...and forget about eating organic and grassfed all the time..it's just impossible for me...i've read the China study and know what they say about animal protein and the link to every cancer on the planet..and then there's Good Calories Bad Calories that says the opposite..and of course Protein Power and Atkins...and I'm sure Mark's book...what, in the hell, should i do? please help


    thank you so much,

    gabe

    36 year old guy - decent shape..


  • #2
    1



    The author of the China Study overgeneralized some of its data and did not mention all of his results. Here is a critical review of the research that shows many of its fallacies:


    http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com/China-Study.html


    It is a good read and should make the transition to a higher animal intake easier (although you could eat mostly vegetation if you want, there are many variations on how one eats Primal).


    Sounds like you have some cognitive dissonance over animal products as you have read some conflicting views on them. Spend a lot of time reading the link I mentioned, this site and perhaps also look at Dr. Eades site to see how safe they really are.


    Animal protein has been part of our diet for a long time. Look critically at the research that says they are horrible for us. You will obviously get biased info on this board (although most people here are very knowledgeable and do not have an agenda to convert you). But look at the info you get from us to compare with others then decide what is best for you.


    I think you feeling better with some animal products suggests you may be deficient in some nutrients (or maybe you just can't enough calories from vegetation?).


    Look at all the empirical data critically and also factor in how you change as an individual on various diets.


    Edit:


    Many people here support grass fed/free ranch animal products and those take priority if budget allows. However, organic animal products is not necessarily the same thing. Organic may mean that it was fed organic grain products. Grass fed/Free Ranch usually means that the animal eats what it has eaten through its evolutionary history and that is the main reason why we support it. The nutritional difference in traditional meats and grass fed ones are not major (a few supplements can negate the difference).


    Another book that might interest you is The Vegetarian Myth (ISBN: 1604860804).

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    • #3
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      thank you so much marvin..i know it feel better with meat...but, it's not like i'm killing the cows myself.as you know, it's a business, and i have no idea what i'm eating

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      • #4
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        Gabe,


        First, good for you for coming here. Mark's book is excellent, clear, rational, and accessible.


        If you'd like another superb and very relevant read, then please avail yourself of "The Vegetarian Myth" by Lierre Kieth. I cannot underscore what an important book it might be. It's by a (previously) lifelong vegetarian/vegan who finally saw the error of her ways. It is thorough, truthful, well-researched, accessible, and ultimately, sad. Not sad because of her having to turn away from vegetarianism -- Hell, that's the best part -- no, it is sad because of the implications she describes of the effects that a vegetarian diet may have on the whole planet. Most of agriculture is based, after all, on grain consumption, a decidedly vegetarian foodstuff. The future is not at all pretty.


        The China Study is mostly non-scientific nonsense (i.e., based on self-reporting epidemiological studies with more holes than Swiss cheese, as they say). But I know what it says and that it's written in a convincing voice by a real honest to goodness scientician, so it can be rather persuasive. GCBC is not written by a scientist (not that that matters) but by someone, Gary Taubes, who didn't start out with an agenda other than to ferret out the truth; which is what he does best, apparently. It is frankly supported by better science than most of Conventional Wisdom (CW), and certainly more so than the China Study, no matter what the China Study's author or other vegan/vegetarian "authorities" might say to the contrary. They have poor science and a big-time predetermined agenda on their side.


        Another great read by an author who is definitely a real scientist, and a physician to boot, is "The Cholesterol Myths" by Uffe Ravsnkov.


        Anyway, best of luck in your quest. You have come to the right place, I believe. Embrace meat without hesitation or guilt. It's what we do best.


        Juan 51 yr old guy, really good shape

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        • #5
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          You should check out the book I mentioned in the edit. I think you will feel much better about animal products afterwards. The book is $10 on Kindle as Amazon has a free PC version for it now.


          For animal products, get to know the farmer to see how the animals are raised. There is ethical meat out there and that is what most of us support. Yes, it is pricier (except organ meat). The nutrition is not too different. But you can have peace of mind that the animals are being treated ethically with no hormones. Animals are not forced to eat what they do not thrive on. This is also a sustainable method of farming.


          Edit:


          Hive mind

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          • #6
            1



            People forget that Taubes does have a degree in physics from Harvard.


            Not exactly shabby.


            While he may "Not be a scientist" in the sense that he gets a salary though a university, say, he is very much the scientist in his inquiries and methods.

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            • #7
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              You don't have to eat tonnes of meat. Continue eating lots of vegies and moderate fruit, nuts and seeds, eggs and add in some meat. If you are not having too much meat perhaps you can afford to get the grassfed.

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              • #8
                1



                Apparently the studies that "link" animal protein to cancer are all made up BS. Basically, they are based on one study on mice that states if you get 10% or more of your calories from casein protein (just one type of animal protein, and it is mostly found in milk) then you have more of a chance of getting cancer. But if that percentage is 5% then you aren't at a higher risk of cancer...and from this all animal proteins give you cancer.


                Anyway, I have not read the book but from what I have read about it it is just complete vegetarian propaganda and the author doesn't even hide it. Animal protein does not give you cancer, and if you looked at studies that weren't cherry picked by vegetarians (that had a moral link to their way of eating) then you would realize most of what they say is complete BS.

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                • #9
                  1



                  Welcome on board


                  It can be confusing, I know I sometimes get "brain freeze" over certain things!


                  Firstly, if you feel better eating meat then try to do so.

                  Secondly, it may not be as expensive as you fear. Do you know how to pick and cook different cuts of meat? E.g. a lot of cheaper, fatty cuts are sublime stewed in the crockpot, but you wouldn't want to fry them like you would a steak.

                  Also don't forget seafood and eggs. There are a few ex-veggies here, ranging from full meat-eaters to those who prefer just fish, or just fish and chicken.

                  Thirdly - for fat try coconut oil. I've not used it myself but lots of people rave about it!

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                  • #10
                    1



                    thank you everyone...i really appreciate it..i read the Paleo Diet from cover to cover today and now i'm officially back to being a carnivore...started with free range turkey breats from whole foods..(now i just have to stop thinking about their beaks getting chopped in half at birth

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                    • #11
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                      @seize18


                      Eventually, you might find a farmer's market near you, or a farmer who sells directly to the pubic. The true "free range" animals/birds will not have been treated cruelly. I think that's part of the definition of free range and organic.


                      FWIW, the only problem I have with "The Paleo Diet" by Loren Cordain is that he is so weirdly against saturated fats. Mark's take on that issue is a sensible one. Hunter/gatherers, and any hunting animal for that matter, preferentially go for fatty parts of the prey first -- organs and the like. In times of plenty, quite often only the fat parts art eaten and the rest is left for scavengers. I have not seen any compelling evidence suggesting we did not evolve doing exactly the same.


                      All the best.

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                      • #12
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                        Hey, welcome seize18.


                        Yes, do go for cheaper cuts if you're worried about cost issues - cheaper cuts doesn't mean cheaper meat that was once a badly-mistreated animal. There are just some parts of the animal that need longer to cook in order to taste good. Here in the UK we have stewing steak which would be awful fried, but is fantastic in a, well, stew! (Which takes longer and makes the meat tender as anything, mmm!).


                        Enjoy your revived meat eating ways!

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                        • #13
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                          I'm currently reading The Vegetarian Myth and skipped ahead to the chapter on Nutrition. Something I read last night reminds me of your post...the author describe a two month period in her life when she was vegan where she wrestled with hunger.


                          There was a bagel shop she walked by fairly regularly and she stopped in for a bagel one day. She got a plain bagel but thought about the cream cheese almost obsessively. The next day, she got the cream cheese and loved it. And the next day she got double the cream cheese.


                          She did this a few times a week for two months, trying to ignore that she was doing it and that her body was grateful for it. At the time, she equivocated it with a moral or spiritual failing on her part, not a physical hunger that had to be satisfied.


                          Your situation isn't uncommon and your body knows what it needs. It's great that you're listening. Something you might look into is buffalo - it's a fairly new product on the market (relatively speaking) and has not had much of an opportunity to be tainted by factory farming. I don't know how it compares price-wise to other free range/grass fed animals but might be worth looking into.


                          Good luck to you!

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                          • #14
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                            Buffalo is very tasty...

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                            • #15
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                              i probably eat 3-6ounces of meat daily and that's it! i eat tons of greens, root veggies, limited berries & nuts. i use avocado or EVOO to increase my fat intake. i used to only eat fish or chicken and i've realized that variety is the spice of life you don't have to only eat meat on PB don't fear!

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