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"Leptin Week" summary and part 2, circadian rhythms

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  • "Leptin Week" summary and part 2, circadian rhythms

    I didn't want to repeat the same material on the various leptin topics, but I had 2 questions..

    1. For the people that got into the leptin topic in the last week or so, what did you take from it? Did it really make you rethink some things? Did it enforce some things you already thought about? Did it help fill in some blanks?

    2. Would you agree that the next piece of the puzzle is about circadian rhythms? Specifically, I mean how the various hormones work together and balance out, and how this cycles over a 24-hr period.

    I just think this is as important as understanding macronutrients, insulin, leptin, cortisol, melatonin, and a bunch more. When matters as much as what. I don't think most writers go into this very much in terms of the complete picture.

  • #2
    Originally posted by DFH View Post
    1. For the people that got into the leptin topic in the last week or so, what did you take from it? Did it really make you rethink some things? Did it enforce some things you already thought about? Did it help fill in some blanks?


    I just think this is as important as understanding macronutrients, insulin, leptin, cortisol, melatonin, and a bunch more. When matters as much as what. I don't think most writers go into this very much in terms of the complete picture.
    This on-going leptin topic has indeed made me rethink some things, namely, eating first thing in the morning. I have to say, though, that I've been feeling overwhelmed with all the new information coming at me and it's making me a bit stressed. It seems like there's always some new idea that comes out that really makes sense to me (like being leptin resistant) but I have trouble juggling it with the rest of the things that also make sense to me. One of my major problems is thinking about food all the time and stressing out about it every single minute.....and with all the new findings out there, I'm finding it really hard to relax about it and it's starting to make me a bit insane, I think.

    Sorry...I guess that was a little bit of a vent. Umm.....anyway....I would agree that understanding circadian rhythms is super important.

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    • #3
      I too have started eating first thing in the am. Had been fasting till 12-2ish before. I find it makes it is making me more tired and I have a real ketosis breath feeling in my esophogus. Not sure if my breath actually smells like ketosis though. I'm sticking with it for the 6-8 weeks though. I feel like the science makes so much sense, especially about not being able to use our food to produce energy properly (I'm now reading Mastering Leptin).
      PaleoMom's Diet Recovery Journal
      http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread82059.html

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Robynbee View Post
        This on-going leptin topic has indeed made me rethink some things, namely, eating first thing in the morning. I have to say, though, that I've been feeling overwhelmed with all the new information coming at me and it's making me a bit stressed. It seems like there's always some new idea that comes out that really makes sense to me (like being leptin resistant) but I have trouble juggling it with the rest of the things that also make sense to me. One of my major problems is thinking about food all the time and stressing out about it every single minute.....and with all the new findings out there, I'm finding it really hard to relax about it and it's starting to make me a bit insane, I think.

        Sorry...I guess that was a little bit of a vent. Umm.....anyway....I would agree that understanding circadian rhythms is super important.
        I feel your pain. I really do. As a relative newbie still trying to figure out PB, having to try to figure out what everyone is talking about Leptin with Dr. Kruse and IF with Leangains, can be overwhelming. The way I try to handle the information overload is to remind myself that every new bit of knowledge I learn is getting me closer to a healthier version of myself. I may not understand everything immediately (esp. the parts about the biological processes behind why to do things one way or another) but it's progress nonetheless. The image I have is of like doing a puzzle. I learn something that I may not initially understand but that still means I have a new piece of the puzzle in my possession. I may not know where it goes yet but that's one less piece that's missing. Slowly but surely I will find where the pieces go. And as the pieces come together I get the benefit of seeing a new healthier version of myself emerging!

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        • #5
          I'll post more when I get home.

          But one of the biggest things I've taken away from it is frustration. Dr. Kruse is awesome at showing the What and the Why of all this (as far as explaining the conditions) but not the How - As in How to make things right - in all but the vaguest terms that generally DON'T include much in the way of What and Why. And I've got the sneaking suspicion that he's going to work his way through his quilt before he really attempts to address that.

          Don't want to sound complainy - because he's putting out so much good information and being a doctor with a full time practice he is devoting insane amounts of time on his own blog and here trying to keep up with content and answer questions - but I'm very solution-oriented. It's frustrating for me to have all the details about the problem and only a smattering of edicts regarding the solution(s).

          That said, I'm plugging away and in several areas I'm finding that I am noticing changes.

          What I really wish is that I could comb through his old facebook posts and see precisely what he did himself.

          But just getting the information that something I didn't know about is wrong and getting the opportunity to hash it out with people who are in the same boat as me is - once again - refreshing.

          Glad you guys are here.

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          • #6
            @ nolineon - I like the way you put that, very succinct. I can definitely relate to the 'doing a puzzle' image. When my puzzle is complete it will be an image of me, looking awesome and probably riding a unicorn into the rainbow sunset.

            @brahnamin - Agreed, I'm glad you guys are here as well. Without this forum it would have been so much harder to get to the level of understanding of my diet that I have now.

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            • #7
              I thought the timing of these Leptin threads, discussion of Intermittent Fasting and Leangains was interesting. See this recent post by Martin on his site: Intermittent fasting diet for fat loss, muscle gain and health

              He provides his research and studies to reference.

              I will admit to not comparing the details of both arguments. I am not saying either approach is correct, because it seems there is evidence and good arguments on both sides. It comes down to doing what works for you. I do agree with DFH that IF'ing is probably not a good idea for the very overweight. I think it's something for those that are already in a good place with their diet and fitness, and want to lose fat and retain muscle.

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              • #8
                I've found all the information to be very hard work - Dr K isn't a clear thinker at all, so getting the nuggets out of his posts is frustrating and then I have to search for evidence that supports and refutes his claims to see if they make sense. It's a long process, and I've had a break from him in the last week.

                That said, I did find enough evidence, including my own n = 1 experiment, to support eating a little earlier than I had been (around 10am instead of waiting til 12 - 2pm) when I first feel a little bit hungry rather than when I'm completely focused on needing to eat. I don't accept the '30 minutes of waking' rule at all. When I break my fast, I protein and fat load it - usually not quite making it to the 50g point, but up around 30ish grams of protein. Days when I do that I am completely satiated for around 7 - 9 hours, which tends to put me in the timeframe for a lighter dinner than I'd been having (smaller portions of meat, some veges, some carbs), then no more eating til I'm peckish the next morning. Doing that, I've had steady energy levels and weight loss every day. But my sleeping is really unsettled.

                So, yeah, it did make me rethink some things. I've adjusted according to my own body, though, not some arbitrary rules.

                And yeah, circadian rhythms is likely to be a really good followup to this. Are you planning to write it up, DHF??
                Started Feb 18 2011

                Tried basic primal and almost everything else in pursuit of IBS control, mood stability, and weight loss.

                Journalling here

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by DFH View Post
                  1. For the people that got into the leptin topic in the last week or so, what did you take from it? Did it really make you rethink some things? Did it enforce some things you already thought about? Did it help fill in some blanks?

                  2. Would you agree that the next piece of the puzzle is about circadian rhythms? Specifically, I mean how the various hormones work together and balance out, and how this cycles over a 24-hr period.

                  I just think this is as important as understanding macronutrients, insulin, leptin, cortisol, melatonin, and a bunch more. When matters as much as what. I don't think most writers go into this very much in terms of the complete picture.
                  1. It reinforced what I was feeling and doing already in that, having tried the morning IFing thing, and having gone back to eating a hearty protein breakfast, I know my workouts are better and I don't get snacky with the latter. As John says, I agree that IFing is really cool if you are ripped and want to get even more ripped. For regular mortals, it's just stress that doesn't need to be there. The bandwagon effect can be really overwhelming around here. (must be even more so for newbies).
                  2. I agree that circadian rhythms are important but I also think we could run the risk of setting up too much of an artificially imposed structure on eating that could kill the pleasure and just be a cortisol elevator if we insist on rigid timing for meals. I think each individual has his/her own rhythms . I agree that eating a good chunk of protein first thing in the morning is good. I just don't think that has to be at 6:30 am if that's not your normal time to get up.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by DFH View Post
                    Would you agree that the next piece of the puzzle is about circadian rhythms? Specifically, I mean how the various hormones work together and balance out, and how this cycles over a 24-hr period.
                    Maybe. A commenter on Dr. K's blog asked about the specific timing associated with the protocol. Dr. K recommended she adjust the protocol to fit her work schedule.

                    That said, I'm thinking the closer we can fit things to the protocol the better because so many of the individual elements fit together in that fashion. And after all this is a 2-month program, not a lifestyle WoE.

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                    • #11
                      One thing I thought of is there has been so much written on low carb and insulin, that people go after that and make changes and get results. Then you think about how you improved in terms of insulin.

                      What we don't know, usually, is how much this approach changed other things, like improving your leptin situation at the same time.

                      For me, this includes reverse T3. Mine was way high in 2007, and so was fasting insulin and trigs. My doc explained what we were doing in terms of rT3, T3, and insulin. The ML book talks a lot about rT3 as it related to leptin resistance. I got the rT3 and insulin sorted out, and didn't even know about leptin. If I would have seen someone in 2007 that explained it in terms of leptin, I may have ended up doing about the same things, and would have thought that fixing leptin was key.

                      I talked to my doc about this the other day and he said fix one, fix the other. He started doing the leptin blood test more often about a year and a half ago.

                      Also, before this came up, it seems that all I read on it talked about it being a signal to stop eating during a meal. That never got my attention because appetite was not a concern. Once I saw that leptin resistance and high rT3 go together, that totally got my attention.

                      It also caused me to re-think my gut reaction to IF as something that is being recklessly promoted too often because the rT3 might go from normal to high. The real concern now, I think, is people probably have higher rT3 already, and they don't know it, and they are the ones that should not be messing around with IF until rT3 gets sorted out. I don't think even the top IF people know squat about this.

                      Dr Kruse is just getting started on his 30-level Quilt. He hasn't written everything at once and it's going to grow. He's active on the forum and answers questions and I think that's really cool.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by DFH View Post
                        Dr Kruse is just getting started on his 30-level Quilt. He hasn't written everything at once and it's going to grow. He's active on the forum and answers questions and I think that's really cool.
                        It's well cool. Sometimes I have to remember that I took a year exploring primal/paleo before it all really came together for me.

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                        • #13
                          I find it interesting how different I'm feeling with eating in the am. I'm still only eating 2 meals but about 9am and 5pm (is it PaleoBird that does that too?) instead of 12 and munching till 4-6pm. I was never hungry or snacky during the fasting period before, yet in the window I didn't stop eating for long before I got something else to eat. Now I can already feel my body getting used to this protocol.
                          Last edited by PaleoMom; 08-19-2012, 10:24 AM.
                          PaleoMom's Diet Recovery Journal
                          http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread82059.html

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by PaleoMom View Post
                            I find it interesting how different I'm feeling with eating in the am. I'm still only eating 2 meals but about 9am and 5pm (is it PaleoBird that does that too?) instead of 12 and munching till 4-6pm. I was never hungry or snacky during the fasting period before, yet in the window I didn't stop eating for long before I got something else to eat. Now I can already feel my body getting used to this protocol.

                            I actually remember a friend reading Mastering Leptin about 5 years ago. She wasn't primal, but ate Weston Price-ish already. She was quite thin already (what I would consider ideal, probably around 17% bf) but wanted to lose more. She followed the leptin diet religiously and the weight just fell off. She didn't watch calories or macros, but did eat quite well and had a tiny appetite. She didn't look leptin resistant to begin with, but it sure did shed those last pounds for her, and trust me when I say losing them was very much against nature. She was WAY too lean. I'm only sharing to give encouragment to lose like myself trying to lose the last bit.
                            Yep, that's what I'm doing. I'm working on the last 8 lbs.

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                            • #15
                              I think we are missing a HUUUUGE piece here, gherlin. leptin and gherlin go together. Circadian rhythms can be altered by gherlin just as much as an offset in melatonin secretion. If there was a way to fully control or even suppress gherlin and it's receptors, leptin might be a tad easier to control. Though I know both hormones have their own different receptors, chemical make-up, etc.

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