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Dr. Cordain's Newest and Greatest Thoughts on Saturated Fat

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  • #16
    I am saying that there are multiple hypotheses why they could have had atherosclerosis so simply stating that it was the saturated fat isn't good enough and only demonstrates bias. One major hypothesis for the pathogenesis of atherosclerosis includes oxidized lipoproteins and endothelial injury, particularly lipoproteins carrying oxidized polyunsaturated fats. When you heat an isolated oil or expose it to air for too long the polyunsaturated fats become oxidized and this lipid produces lipoperoxides. When the endothelium of the atheries accumulates oxidized polyunsaturated fats its cells can become damaged and arterial damage combined with oxidized lipoproteins begins the formation of atherosclerosis, as described by Dr. Cordain, he would agree with that. The Inuit were well-known to cook with high polyunsaturated oils like seal oil and we can expect cooking with various oils to cause atherosclerosis. Like here with soy oil, there is no reason to distinguish between heated soy oil and heated seal oil with regards to oxidization of polyunsaturated fats. Consumption of repeatedly heated soy oil increases... [Tohoku J Exp Med. 2008] - PubMed result The effect appears to be particularly pronounced in those lacking estrogen, i.e. elderly Inuit women.

    The relation of lipid peroxidation processes with ... [Mol Nutr Food Res. 2005] - PubMed result

    "Cholesterol-PUFA esters are minor constituents of mammalian derived food, but main components of low density lipoprotein (LDL). The PUFA part of these esters occasionally suffers oxidation by heating or storage of mammalian derived food. There are indications that these oxidized cholesterol esters are directly incorporated into lipoproteins and transferred via the LDL into endothelial cells where they induce damage and start the sequence of events outlined above. (atherosclerosis)"

    So if the Inuit were doing something silly like cooking with a high PUFA oil, which does indeed seem to cause atherosclerosis, we can't blame their atherosclerosis on saturated fat because it could all be the heated seal oil.

    As for the "saturated fat" kills rats dead studies, most of them involve a large amount of omega-6 fatty acids which end up causing atherosclerosis by increasing inflammation http://circ.ahajournals.org/cgi/content/full/105/9/1135 High-fat mouse-murder diets are just that - weird and deficient diets that cause damage to the body by a disequilibrium of polyunsaturated fats in the cells.
    Last edited by Stabby; 05-22-2011, 01:08 PM.
    Stabbing conventional wisdom in its face.

    Anyone who wants to talk nutrition should PM me!

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    • #17
      His statement was made in regard to the question about wither pemmican food is healthy(highly saturated fatty COOKED food). He is defending his notion that lean cuts of meat are best, which your information seems to support as well (unless you're a raw foodist.)

      Also I am not going to buy that the oil reacts drastically different if it's isolated or still attached to the protein

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      • #18
        He is trying to defend his lean meats statement by saying that saturated fat causes atherosclerosis, which is unfounded inductive reasoning without addressing alternative hypotheses. In short, it's not a good argument since there are other reasons why they could have had atherosclerosis.

        I don't think that fats in properly cooked fish are oxidized significantly. Like here with microwaving http://www.agriculturejournals.cz/publicFiles/07569.pdf
        Stabbing conventional wisdom in its face.

        Anyone who wants to talk nutrition should PM me!

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        • #19
          I'm going to stick to just the innuit example because we'll be here all day if i try tackling the entire preponderance of data that supports the notion that high saturated fat(especially cooked) is bad for vascular health.

          INFACT, the Innuit example were one of the strongest arguments FOR the inclusion of high saturated fat in the diet. Before I heard the aforementioned interview. I would challenge you now to show me evidence that it is not only benign but healthy, with a cardiovascular endpoint.

          I would like to know that you're tackling the data objectively and not defending your love for bacon or lamb chops, because I know people close to me with diabetes that continue their poor diet(not related to saturated fat), and that's fine

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Stabby View Post
            He is trying to defend his lean meats statement by saying that saturated fat causes atherosclerosis, which is unfounded inductive reasoning without addressing alternative hypotheses. In short, it's not a good argument since there are other reasons why they could have had atherosclerosis.

            I don't think that fats in properly cooked fish are oxidized significantly. Like here with microwaving http://www.agriculturejournals.cz/publicFiles/07569.pdf

            Your alternative hypothesis was that the Innuit were cooking their saturated fat (which we would do anyway) and that was the cause for their plaque formation, and had they been eating the saturated fat raw(which is unapplicable to 99% of his listeners) they may not have developed the plaque.

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            • #21
              No my alternative hypothesis was that they were cooking isolated seal oil which is high in polyunsaturated fat and isolated oils oxidize readily.

              So let's see. 1. You are going to stick with an inductive argument that has multiple explanations and simply assert that it is just such an amazing argument. 2. No you aren't going to offer any empirical evidence. 3. Now I have to argue that saturated fat is beneficial, for what reason, exactly? Okay well low carb diets are the best for lipid profiles Modification of Lipoproteins by Very Low-Carbohydrate Diets, and they need to include a lot of fat. Whether it be saturated or monounsaturated I don't think really matters but if people like saturated fat then I see no reason not to eat it. That is basically the position of everyone around here.
              Stabbing conventional wisdom in its face.

              Anyone who wants to talk nutrition should PM me!

              Comment


              • #22
                When I read Cordain's book several years ago it felt like he was astride the fence, and at least he now seems to be leaning towards the primal side.
                This time, like all times, is a very good one, if we but know what to do with it. Ralph Waldo Emerson

                Any given day you are surrounded by 10,000 idiots.
                Lao Tsu, founder of Taoism

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                • #23
                  He never said it causes heart attacks just a plaque in the arteries which may be benign to some extent, but it's not something i'd want for a lot of other reasons.

                  Cordains entire premise, as well as the one of Sisson, is that because our genome grew on a particular diet, that it must be the better way of eating. This premise is a large assumption, so to disqualify something for being an assumption or empirical doesn't seem fair

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                  • #24
                    If I have it right, Stabby argues that the basic Inuit diet as well as other HG diets have been generally found to reduce biomarkers that cause various cardiovascular diseases and plaque formation (as well as to reduce actual CVD). The reasonable conclusion is that since we know these diets reduce biomarkers for CVD and plaque formation, we should be hesitant to look at diets high in saturated fat as the probable cause of an individual case of plaque formation. That seems reasonable.

                    Straxville points out that at least one Inuit had plaque formation. He speculates that the cause was consumption of saturated fat, since the Inuit consume saturated fat.

                    Stabby replies that the Inuit consumed an unusual food (cooked seal oil) which could reasonably be assumed to be a possible cause of plaque formation. Stabby's alternative hypothesis was about cooking seal oil, not cooking saturated fat in general.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by bookstorecowboy View Post
                      If I have it right, Stabby argues that the basic Inuit diet as well as other HG diets have been generally found to reduce biomarkers that cause various cardiovascular diseases and plaque formation (as well as to reduce actual CVD). The reasonable conclusion is that since we know these diets reduce biomarkers for CVD and plaque formation, we should be hesitant to look at diets high in saturated fat as the probable cause of an individual case of plaque formation. That seems reasonable.

                      Straxville points out that at least one Inuit had plaque formation. He speculates that the cause was consumption of saturated fat, since the Inuit consume saturated fat.

                      Stabby replies that the Inuit consumed an unusual food (cooked seal oil) which could reasonably be assumed to be a possible cause of plaque formation. Stabby's alternative hypothesis was about cooking seal oil, not cooking saturated fat in general.
                      Nice breakdown. Think we can follow up?
                      If you have a problem with what you read: 1. Get a dictionary 2. Don't read it 3. Grow up 4. After 3, go back to 1/ or 2. -- Dennis Blue. | "I don't care about your opinion, only your analysis"- Professor Calabrese. | "Life is more important than _______" - Drew | I eat animals that eat vegetables -- Matt Millen, former NFL Linebacker. | "This country is built on sugar & shit that comes in a box marinated in gluten - abc123

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by bookstorecowboy View Post
                        If I have it right, Stabby argues that the basic Inuit diet as well as other HG diets have been generally found to reduce biomarkers that cause various cardiovascular diseases and plaque formation (as well as to reduce actual CVD). The reasonable conclusion is that since we know these diets reduce biomarkers for CVD and plaque formation, we should be hesitant to look at diets high in saturated fat as the probable cause of an individual case of plaque formation. That seems reasonable.

                        Straxville points out that at least one Inuit had plaque formation. He speculates that the cause was consumption of saturated fat, since the Inuit consume saturated fat.

                        Stabby replies that the Inuit consumed an unusual food (cooked seal oil) which could reasonably be assumed to be a possible cause of plaque formation. Stabby's alternative hypothesis was about cooking seal oil, not cooking saturated fat in general.

                        Theres not really been any studies showing that the Inuit have less plaque formation. There is some evidence that they might not have had a lot of heart attacks, but that doesn't mean they didn't have plaque. And there were 2 autopsys that showed that they indeed had plaque formation that resembles what you see in post-agricultural times.

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                        • #27
                          ^
                          What you don't seem to be understanding from Stabby's argument is that the plaque formation could just as easily have been a result of cooking in marine oil.

                          I haven't researched this, but I'm assuming marine oil is high in polyunsaturated fatty acids. PUFAs have a lot of double bonds and are therefore easily oxidized when exposed to air and/or heat. It is entirely possible that this, not the saturated fat, is what caused plaque formation.

                          Personally, I think the case of the Tokelauans is one of the most compelling for absolving saturated fat. These were people who got a huge portion of their daily calories from coconut, which is to say saturated fat. And yet heart disease for them was rare. If SFA was a primary agent of cardiovascular disease, it should have been common in that population.

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                          • #28
                            bill_89 the evidence is that plaque formation itself is not "heart disease" and heart disease takes low level inflammation plus plaque formation. So while a lot of people may have poor circulation, and clogged arteries, it might not lead to a coronary event in the absence of imflammation(IE:wheat)

                            There is good evidence that after a fatty meal the circulatory system reacts to it and is less "dilated"

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                            • #29
                              I didn't really say that Inuit or other hunter-gatherer diets were particularly protective, just that there was no evidence that saturated fat causes atherosclerosis. Indeed it could be like Cordain suggests that the French could have massive atherosclerosis and just aren't dying from heart attacks due to low inflammation but I simply haven't seen the evidence.

                              Cordain's deal is that he looks at what he thinks the original paleo diet way back when was like and then tries to prove them as best he can. Then eventually he softens his position if it doesn't turn out to be true. With the whole Paleo Diet concept I think that he had the real empirical evidence prior to writing the book, or at least what he called the empirical evidence. The argument against grains and sugar and whatnot isn't contingent upon them being novel foods, and indeed that is just an assumption that is supposed to produce a hypothesis but some people treat it as an argument in itself. The Paleo Diet made sense since he had reasoned that grains, dairy and processed foods were bad, thus he says we ought to eat the diet of the Paleolithic era. He is great for research but since he is an academic with a book we have to be extremely critical of everything he says. Pretty much anything that could possibly support the Paleo Diet concept was espoused like high muscle-protein intake, acid/alkaline ash balance thingy, palmitic acid causes atherosclerosis and whatnot. I'm not so sure if any of these are necessarily right or if they all dairy is necessarily a bad thing or just the way it is produced most of the time.

                              Anyway he says that palmitic acid is a non-issue and that it is fine in moderation, which is consistent with the evidence. Just because there wasn't tons of something during the bulk of evolution doesn't mean that it is bad and I have never seen any evidence that the simple raising of cholesterol levels from it produces more atherogenic lipoproteins. In fact here it is associated with less progression of atherosclerosis here Dietary fats, carbohydrate, and progression of coronary atherosclerosis in postmenopausal women That doesn't mean that a pound of butter per day won't cause atherosclerosis since these are differences in normal populations, but it does pretty much refute the notion that more palmitic acid means more cholesterol means more plaque.
                              Stabbing conventional wisdom in its face.

                              Anyone who wants to talk nutrition should PM me!

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Dr. Bork Bork View Post
                                Meh. I'm starting to feel like reading Dr. Cordain (especially with him constantly changing his mind, so it seems) is like watching Dr. Oz.
                                A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.

                                I respect people more for changing their minds in the face of better information. I see no point in sticking to your guns when you know its wrong just because you don't want to admit you were wrong. If I'd done that, I'd still be dreadfully ill eating my healthy whole grains and canola oil.

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