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  • #16
    Let's use an analogy. You have a pool of sharks. Each day you harpoon a shark and the others go crazy from the blood and cannibalize it. Then they breed by one a day and you still have lots of sharks because you're only killing one per day. Killing just one shark at a time doesn't do anything but cause a sharksheimer reaction since they're breeding at the rate that you are killing them. What you need to do is go to town on the sharks and kill them all.

    Weird analogy, stabby. Yes, stabby.
    Stabbing conventional wisdom in its face.

    Anyone who wants to talk nutrition should PM me!

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    • #17
      A perfect analogy from a stabby raccoon!
      “Whether you think you can, or think you can’t — you’re right.” ~ Henry Ford

      My primal journal

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Stabby View Post
        Let's use an analogy. You have a pool of sharks. Each day you harpoon a shark and the others go crazy from the blood and cannibalize it. Then they breed by one a day and you still have lots of sharks because you're only killing one per day. Killing just one shark at a time doesn't do anything but cause a sharksheimer reaction since they're breeding at the rate that you are killing them. What you need to do is go to town on the sharks and kill them all.

        Weird analogy, stabby. Yes, stabby.
        So oh wise Stabbing one, how does one stab all of the sharks? More CO?
        The more I see the less I know for sure.
        -John Lennon

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        • #19
          Originally posted by lil_earthmomma View Post
          So oh wise Stabbing one, how does one stab all of the sharks? More CO?
          I'm not stabby, but I'll take a "stab" at answering (bad, bad pun, I know).

          VERY slowly up the CO, add good probiotics with many different strains that do not contain any sugar at all, stop eating fruit and sugary/high carb things for a few weeks or until cravings subside, add homemade bone broth as often as you can.

          Search the GAPS diet, it has a lot more info along these same lines

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          • #20
            Bonebroth? I hadnt heard of that as part of the anti candida diet....what properties of bone broth help?

            I'm kind of in the same camp except with PB in general. Since I started PB I feel worse and worse and worse but now I am sensitive to all sorts of foods I wasnt before. I never had candida symptoms, but I have been living in die off hell for over 3 months now.

            I cant stand the taste of c.o - even the refined needs a lot of help, but mostly it makes me queasy...I dont know if it is part of the die off or not. I can tolerate coconut milk a little better, although I still get queasy.

            One of the things I am struggling with now is although when I started PB I was eating greek yogurt daily, all yogurt gives me an upset stomach now so I think I have pretty much dropped my probiotic sources.
            MTA: because it is rare I dont have more to say

            "When I got too tired to run anymore I just pretended I wasnt tired and kept running anyway" - my daughter Age 7

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            • #21
              Originally posted by klawler9 View Post
              I bet the coconut oil is actually not the problem. I bet anti fungal nature of coconut oil is killing the yeast in your gut and the rosacea is just the dead fungus releasing mycotoxins that come through your skin. If you don't fully bring your gut back to it's normal natural healthy state then this will continue if you eat coconut oil - but it's probably not the cocounut oil that is the problem........but I've been wrong before
              Originally posted by Stabby View Post
              Let's use an analogy. You have a pool of sharks. Each day you harpoon a shark and the others go crazy from the blood and cannibalize it. Then they breed by one a day and you still have lots of sharks because you're only killing one per day. Killing just one shark at a time doesn't do anything but cause a sharksheimer reaction since they're breeding at the rate that you are killing them. What you need to do is go to town on the sharks and kill them all.

              Weird analogy, stabby. Yes, stabby.
              +1
              Find me at aToadontheRoad.com. Cheers!

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              • #22
                Originally posted by inquisitiveone View Post
                Whoa. Thank you so much for posting this ... it's almost scary how my life lines up with many of those symptoms.
                Am I correct in understanding that you got your yeast issues under control with just primal eating—not the bentonite/caproyl/psyllium concoction that site sells? If you're willing, I'd like to know more about that. (It could be in a new thread or via PM, so we're not continuing the hijacking of this thread.)
                I'm not a total expert by any means, but I have done a lot of reading in the past 6 years or so. My issues were definitely there, but weren't as EXTREME as it can be. So for me, I think just eliminating ALL of the sugars (alcohol, fruit, grains, complex carbs, the usual suspects) and supplementing with probiotics did a lot of good stuff. I do like the stuff the site sells, but by no means do I think it's necessary. If you have an EXTREME case, you might need that kind of support though. What they do is run through a series of antivirals, since your body (and the yeast) can adjust to them. So you'd use capryl for three months and then something else for three, that sort of thing. I think the bentonite is just to help get the yeast out of your system as it dies to help with the herxheimer (die-off) reaction. (BTW I haven't been at that site much in a couple of years, so I'm going by my memory for what that's worth.) The MOST important thing is the dietary changes. And it is very similar to strict paleo or GAPS-- basically a no sugar ever gut healing type of diet. (I still recommend that site for their recipes section of the forum-- many are congruent with PB and there's a lot of creativity.)

                For me, Primal hit all the good points of eliminating the bad stuff, and that was all I needed. But your mileage may vary...

                Originally posted by Stabby View Post
                Let's use an analogy. You have a pool of sharks. Each day you harpoon a shark and the others go crazy from the blood and cannibalize it. Then they breed by one a day and you still have lots of sharks because you're only killing one per day. Killing just one shark at a time doesn't do anything but cause a sharksheimer reaction since they're breeding at the rate that you are killing them. What you need to do is go to town on the sharks and kill them all.

                Weird analogy, stabby. Yes, stabby.
                I liked it! But yes... if you are both killing the yeast and feeding the yeast, it becomes a viscious cycle. You want to be taking in anough antifungals to kill them at a high rate, yet not enough so that the reaction is just too much to handle. So starting low and building to tolerance is a good thing. And perhaps trying some other antifungal type stuff (they have three or four on the site, which are ones you can buy ANYWHERE, BTW, so you don't have to go through them at all).

                Originally posted by OperaDivaMom View Post
                I'm not stabby, but I'll take a "stab" at answering (bad, bad pun, I know).

                VERY slowly up the CO, add good probiotics with many different strains that do not contain any sugar at all, stop eating fruit and sugary/high carb things for a few weeks or until cravings subside, add homemade bone broth as often as you can.

                Search the GAPS diet, it has a lot more info along these same lines
                Good plan. Gut healing with a basic basic diet and probiotics (a good brand with lots of different types), and upping the antifungals slowly.

                Originally posted by runnergal View Post
                Bonebroth? I hadnt heard of that as part of the anti candida diet....what properties of bone broth help?

                I'm kind of in the same camp except with PB in general. Since I started PB I feel worse and worse and worse but now I am sensitive to all sorts of foods I wasnt before. I never had candida symptoms, but I have been living in die off hell for over 3 months now.

                I cant stand the taste of c.o - even the refined needs a lot of help, but mostly it makes me queasy...I dont know if it is part of the die off or not. I can tolerate coconut milk a little better, although I still get queasy.

                One of the things I am struggling with now is although when I started PB I was eating greek yogurt daily, all yogurt gives me an upset stomach now so I think I have pretty much dropped my probiotic sources.
                the bone broth is actually from the GAPS diet, I'd check the website there for all the complete info on what it does, but it's generally a very healing brew.

                If you're really having issues with coconut oil, I'd cut back for a bit. Maybe it's too much for you right now, or maybe your guts are just not doing well enough to tolerate it.

                And yogurt CAN be a good probiotic source -- but it also contains sugar. :-/ I'd suggest a probiotic in pill form, something with a high level of different strains. I'm sure there are a couple of threads already on the board about recommendations, or somebody will always make a suggestion! I get mine from my doc and I can't remember the name off of the top of my head but it has a ton of stuff in it. I only take it twice a week right now...

                I know a lot of people don't "believe" in systemic yeast. Or didn't-- I went through a long time hearing how it was just in our heads. Kinda like when I had thyroid problems. And when my mom had endometriosis years ago and was told it was in her head for 10 years until she figured out what it was on her own and TOLD her doctor what it was. :-) But honestly, I think many of us ate like crap-- and ate tons of things that are basically sugar to our bodies and in doing so it just follows that our guts are not healthy. Whether it's leaky gut (intestinal impermeability), or an imbalance in the gut flora, really the treatment is the same. It does take time though, and unfortunately with yeast there really can be a die-off issue, which is definitely uncomfortable! But as I see it... it's all about improving gut health and that is a good goal for all of us.

                Interestingly, I just lost a little fat last month and experienced some light die-off issues (some skin issues, which is where I usually see it).
                sigpic "Boy I got vision and the rest of the world is wearing bifocals" - Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid

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                • #23
                  Coconut oil and milk makes me really nauseous. It didn't until I'd been having it regularly for a while so I suspect I have developed yet another intolerance.

                  It could be die-off as I may have candida, but I am taking caprylic acid and oil of oregano and strong probiotics and none of those make me nauseous. PLus it happens almost immediately after eating it.
                  Gluten intolerance and hypermobility syndrome http://www.cfids.org/pdf/joint-hypermobility-guide.pdf

                  Eat food. Mostly real. Enjoy life.

                  Health, energy, wellbeing, vitality, joy, LIFE! Health At Every Size

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                  Harold Whitman

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                  • #24
                    this is a really good thread. and excellent shark analogy, stabby!!

                    when i started PB and was doing tons and tons of reading, i was convinced i had systemic yeast... not as severe as some people, but definitely there. i'm not always diligent about taking probiotics or getting enough coconut oil, and my athlete's foot has returned. i really thought i'd made progress because after going through carb-flu/yeast die-off hell (got rashes that i'm sure were from yeast... eventually went away) i felt much better. that was 8 months ago or so. and i've gradually had more fruit/dark chocolate, so i'm not zero sugar and obviously i need to go back and kill more sharks, as it were.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Minxxa View Post
                      I'm not a total expert by any means, but I have done a lot of reading in the past 6 years or so. My issues were definitely there, but weren't as EXTREME as it can be. So for me, I think just eliminating ALL of the sugars (alcohol, fruit, grains, complex carbs, the usual suspects) and supplementing with probiotics did a lot of good stuff. I do like the stuff the site sells, but by no means do I think it's necessary. If you have an EXTREME case, you might need that kind of support though. What they do is run through a series of antivirals, since your body (and the yeast) can adjust to them. So you'd use capryl for three months and then something else for three, that sort of thing. I think the bentonite is just to help get the yeast out of your system as it dies to help with the herxheimer (die-off) reaction. (BTW I haven't been at that site much in a couple of years, so I'm going by my memory for what that's worth.) The MOST important thing is the dietary changes. And it is very similar to strict paleo or GAPS-- basically a no sugar ever gut healing type of diet. (I still recommend that site for their recipes section of the forum-- many are congruent with PB and there's a lot of creativity.)
                      Thanks very much for your response. I did poke around the site some more last night, and saw their plan, with the differing phases. At the very least, I can start with CO or oregano oil while thinking about whether to get some bentonite, and researching probiotics. I'll miss my yogurt ...
                      “Whether you think you can, or think you can’t — you’re right.” ~ Henry Ford

                      My primal journal

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                      • #26
                        Just one more time.....Vitamin D......just sayin'!

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