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Intermittent Fasting - A Primer ( Part 3 )

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  • Originally posted by fkjr2 View Post
    Does anyone know if having multiple servings of BCAA during morning lifts and shortly after break the fast?

    I lift in the am fasted and don't eat anything until 6 pm

    Thanks.
    Are you following LeanGains by any chance? I know Martin Berkhan is a big proponent of BCAA supplementation.

    My sense is that in any amount that you are likely to be taking them, they should not interfere. The question is whether the BCAAs will result in any significant insulin response. I don't know about that, but I have seen studies that suggest that BCAA levels in the plasma increase during starvation. I expect this is because BCAAs are readily oxidized during exercise and during starvation or fasting, they are released to provide a systemic energy substrate. I'm speculating there, but it seems reasonable. So, BCAA supplementation is mimicking your metabolic response, which I would expect to maintain the fasting hormonal context.

    -PK
    My blog : cogitoergoedo.com

    Interested in Intermittent Fasting? This might help: part 1, part 2, part 3.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by pklopp View Post
      Are you following LeanGains by any chance? I know Martin Berkhan is a big proponent of BCAA supplementation.

      My sense is that in any amount that you are likely to be taking them, they should not interfere. The question is whether the BCAAs will result in any significant insulin response. I don't know about that, but I have seen studies that suggest that BCAA levels in the plasma increase during starvation. I expect this is because BCAAs are readily oxidized during exercise and during starvation or fasting, they are released to provide a systemic energy substrate. I'm speculating there, but it seems reasonable. So, BCAA supplementation is mimicking your metabolic response, which I would expect to maintain the fasting hormonal context.

      -PK
      Yes kind of a blend of lean gains and warrior diet.

      Thanks for the info.

      Comment


      • I dont quite understand all the praise BCAA gets. From a paleo perspective, EAAs should be the better alternative. I can easily imagine some hunters eating a bit of dried meat during their hunt, but i can hardly imagine them setting up a complete fractional filtration setup to get their pure BCAA during the hunt.
        Also, i could not find any studies that directly compared the two in real humans. The one all the rave seems to be based upon is this one Distinct anabolic signalling responses to amino acids in C2C12 skeletal muscle cells - Springer which used cell cultures, so i am not sure how well it translates into real life.
        Does someone have a better insight into these things?

        Comment


        • Originally posted by mavo View Post
          I dont quite understand all the praise BCAA gets. From a paleo perspective, EAAs should be the better alternative. I can easily imagine some hunters eating a bit of dried meat during their hunt, but i can hardly imagine them setting up a complete fractional filtration setup to get their pure BCAA during the hunt.
          Also, i could not find any studies that directly compared the two in real humans. The one all the rave seems to be based upon is this one Distinct anabolic signalling responses to amino acids in C2C12 skeletal muscle cells - Springer which used cell cultures, so i am not sure how well it translates into real life.
          Does someone have a better insight into these things?
          This is my take on it, and I have not fully researched this, I'm just thinking out loud.

          Here's an analogy ...

          Imagine that one day your neighbour rushes to your home breathless and announces that there is a truck coming down the road that is giving away free lumber. You don't quite believe him, but you go outside to have a look and sure enough, there is a lumber truck slowly moving down the road and all your neighbours are rushing up to the truck, taking 2x4s, running to their back yards, throwing the lumber over the fence, then rushing back to the truck to do it all again, while there's still free lumber to be had. You're nobody's fool, so you join in the fray, accumulating quite an untidy aglomeration in your back yard. Eventually, the truck is gone, so you set about bringing some order to your pile of lumber, and you spend the next while arranging things in tidy piles.

          While all of this has been going on, all of it has been monitored by a KH-11 Keenan class reconnaissance satellite passing overhead. About the size of the Hubble space telescope and possessing a similar 2.4 meter mirror yielding 6 inch resolution on the ground, this is the satellite class that supposedly provided the crucial intel that ultimately located Osama Bin Laden. All of the images gathered of your neighbourhood are transmitted to analysts at the NSA and NRO ( National Research Office ). After careful analysis of the images, both organizations agree that given the amount of activity observed and the quantity of lumber in your back yard, a great deal of effort has been expended and further, it would seem that you are about to add an extension to your house of several rooms. Except that over the coming weeks, as the weather gets cold, you systematically draw down your neatly stacked pile of lumber to burn it for heat in your fireplace, which had been your intention all along.

          Now, in this analogy, the houses in the neighbourhood are muscle cells. You and your neighbour are protein synthesis enzymes. The lumber truck is part of the local circulatory system. The lumber itself is BCAAs, and the tidy lumber piles are an intermediate protein structure that has yet to be identified. The recon satellite is whatever lab techniques are being used by the scientists performing the experiment, who themselves map onto the NSA and NRO analysts.

          Everything hangs together perfectly, and the conclusion is perfectly wrong. The only reason the cells increase protein synthesis in the presence of BCAAs is to build temporary storage organelles which are oxidized when the situation warrants. Analysts thought you were destined to build an addition whereas you always intended to build a bonfire.

          It's not enough to say that protein synthesis is increased, and therefore it's all good. There is an unstated assumption among the fitness community that BCAAs increase synthesis of the functional aspects of muscle cells, i.e. actin, myosin, muscle sarcomeres or the like. Of course, cortisol is also a protein structure, and if I were to tell you that all of the increased protein synthesis was going into synthesizing additional proto-cortisol, the BCAA party would come to a screeching halt. I'm not saying that it does, I'm just pointing out that it very important to decide just what exactly is being synthesized.

          -PK
          My blog : cogitoergoedo.com

          Interested in Intermittent Fasting? This might help: part 1, part 2, part 3.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by pklopp View Post
            So, in our current context, we find ourselves constantly bombarded with priming messages to eat. This makes "eat when you feel like it" a far more challenging proposition than it once was.

            This is why I prefer fasting and one meal per day. You cannot mess this up. I doesn't really get any simpler.

            -PK
            Yes, and of course we're surrounded by people who don't even need the subliminal priming messages, because they honestly believe that missing meals is 'bad for you', and aren't afraid to tell you so. I remember at school when I wanted to do two activities in one lunchtime (circuit training and volleyball) having to be very careful to let neither teacher know that I wasn't actually eating lunch that day.

            It's very much easier for me knowing that eating during the day isn't going to just add a few calories to the total, but derail burning my fat stores for 4-5 hours. That gives me a good reason to hold off until dinner, when I don't have to worry then about how much I'm eating. I tend to be an all or nothing kind of person, so it's working very well for me. Cheers.
            Me, My Father and The Alzheimer's - http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread84213.html

            Comment


            • Great analogy! I hope you are a teacher. If not, talent got wasted

              My intuition is, that even if BCAA could upregulate muscle protein synthesis, it would still be useless in the context of fasted training plus BCAA, since they are a incomplete protein source, thus there is nothing available to actually build the muscle. The only thing left would be the hope that it could stop muscle breakdown in a fasted training setting, which i dont know if it even exists. And in this case, normal protein could probably do that too. I hope that wasnt too much speculation on my part.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by mavo View Post
                Great analogy! I hope you are a teacher. If not, talent got wasted

                My intuition is, that even if BCAA could upregulate muscle protein synthesis, it would still be useless in the context of fasted training plus BCAA, since they are a incomplete protein source, thus there is nothing available to actually build the muscle. The only thing left would be the hope that it could stop muscle breakdown in a fasted training setting, which i dont know if it even exists. And in this case, normal protein could probably do that too. I hope that wasnt too much speculation on my part.
                I suspect that what might happen is that the BCAAs prevent in situ catabolism. That is, because there are exogenously supplied energy substrates, your don't need to breakdown your BCAA stores. You keep them around for some other time. This serves to maintain muscle mass, even though that mass is simply in the form of stored fuel. And in the fitness community, there is a sizable contingent that considers a bigger muscle a good thing, even when that muscle is simply large due to being injected with an inert oil ...

                65.jpg

                -PK
                My blog : cogitoergoedo.com

                Interested in Intermittent Fasting? This might help: part 1, part 2, part 3.

                Comment


                • Thanks for taking your time. I will keep doing my workouts fasted for the health benefits.

                  Comment


                  • Ewww. PK, that guy in the pic above looks like he has a giant bicep tumor. Not attractive.

                    Comment


                    • We are in violent agreement! There are people out there that seriously just go for mass, irrespective of how that's achieved. Injecting synthol is just brain dead stupid, and you would think it would be obvious to everyone. Apparently, it isn't. Body image problems are not restricted to anorexia or young girls ...

                      -PK
                      My blog : cogitoergoedo.com

                      Interested in Intermittent Fasting? This might help: part 1, part 2, part 3.

                      Comment


                      • That guy in the pic should have injected his forearms instead and gone as Popeye for Halloween.

                        Comment


                        • I am wondering if anyone has experienced acne from IF? I started doing 20-24 hour fasts about 3 weeks ago and have noticed a substantial increase acne??? I am a 38 year old female and my skin tends to break out in response to eating foods that do not agree with me. Since I have started IFing my skin has gone haywire. I have not lost weight (I don't have weight to lose) I am assuming hormones are involved?
                          I am wondering if this is something that will pass? Any insight would be much appreciated. I am really enjoying the mental clarity I have with eating once a day and would hate to stop but the acne issue is really a problem.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by gabygrok View Post
                            I am wondering if anyone has experienced acne from IF? I started doing 20-24 hour fasts about 3 weeks ago and have noticed a substantial increase acne??? I am a 38 year old female and my skin tends to break out in response to eating foods that do not agree with me. Since I have started IFing my skin has gone haywire. I have not lost weight (I don't have weight to lose) I am assuming hormones are involved?
                            I am wondering if this is something that will pass? Any insight would be much appreciated. I am really enjoying the mental clarity I have with eating once a day and would hate to stop but the acne issue is really a problem.
                            I've had bad acne for 35 years. One time I went to give blood and they asked if I had chicken pox! My GP told me it wasn't anything to do with what I ate but it was always better when I ate low carb and worse when I ate snacks. This year I cut out dairy completely for the first time and after about 6 weeks, it's completely gone. Are you using heavy cream/butter in coffee? I've been IF'ing one meal a day for just over a week now and no sign of the acne flaring up. But I don't touch any kind of dairy.
                            Me, My Father and The Alzheimer's - http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread84213.html

                            Comment


                            • I used to have bad acne when I was a teenager. It was the only time in my life I would drink a lot of cow milk (UHT kind of crap) but never related the two. Before and after my teenage years, acne was a non-issue. I can eat cheese and cream / butter without any flares. I have been IFing as described in pklopp's articles for many weeks without any acne issue (I am 38 now). So what exactly do you eat ?

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by dkJames View Post
                                I used to have bad acne when I was a teenager. It was the only time in my life I would drink a lot of cow milk (UHT kind of crap) but never related the two. Before and after my teenage years, acne was a non-issue. I can eat cheese and cream / butter without any flares. I have been IFing as described in pklopp's articles for many weeks without any acne issue (I am 38 now). So what exactly do you eat ?
                                My diet has gotten more and more restrictive due to multiple food sensitivities. Dairy is not my friend so I avoid it. I stick to mainly meat, eggs, veggies, avocado and brazil nuts and coconut oil. I don't do well with fruit, I seem to be very carb sensitive. The only real change has been in the timing of my meal - went from eating 3 meals a day to 1 or 2. I thought perhaps my skin changes had to do with an increase in testosterone or a change in the balance between estrogen and testosterone. I am prepared to keep up the experiment to see where this all takes me.
                                Last edited by gabygrok; 05-27-2013, 06:49 PM.

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