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  • Lean gains

    So I have read up on the lean gains blog and had some questions.
    1. His IF is simply 16 hour fast and an 8 hour feeding window? That seems pretty easy as sometimes I naturally have an eating window of 4 hours.
    2. What kind of diet does he advocate. I know he talks about eating pie all the time but when hes eating clean is is a low carb diet or what?
    3. Not related to lean gains and just a general IF question, I know its unsustainable and I wouldn't do it but there is no drop in metabolism for up to 72 hours into a fast according to the author of lean gains and was wondering if I lift every 2 days, could i fast for the entire time then workout and have a 12 hour feeding window with 36 hour fasts?
    thanks

  • #2
    Martin advocates high protein (min 1.5g/lb), with cycling of carbs. Low carbs on rest days, high carbs on workout days. Reverse for fats.

    Martin does not recommend a 72 hour fast.

    If you are above 12% BF, eat 500 calories below maintenace on rest days, and just below maintenance on workout days. Your biggest meal with the carbs needs to be post workout.

    No reason to mess with his program, because it's worked for lots of people. BTW, his food choices are clean, but not necessarily primal. Plenty of potatoes for sure.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by RezH View Post
      No reason to mess with his program, because it's worked for lots of people. BTW, his food choices are clean, but not necessarily primal. Plenty of potatoes for sure.
      I totally agree. It's working great for me. I load up on the sweet potatoes post-workout. Sometimes white potatoes too, but I prefer the sweets. I tried creating a calorie surplus from fat last year since I was afraid of carbs and it did not work nearly as well.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by yodiewan View Post
        I totally agree. It's working great for me. I load up on the sweet potatoes post-workout. Sometimes white potatoes too, but I prefer the sweets. I tried creating a calorie surplus from fat last year since I was afraid of carbs and it did not work nearly as well.
        do you workout in the afternoon? that's the only way I could see myself doing this. I fast typically until 1 or 2pm then eat, then workout around 6pm (so, not entirely fasted I guess) then eat an hour later.

        I used to work out first thing in the am where I was truly fasted, and would take BCAA pre-post workout but since I work out outdoors the cold made me shift to later in the day as opposed to right after waking.
        I used to seriously post here, now I prefer to troll.

        Comment


        • #5
          iniQuity- how is this working for you? I just started Leangains and our schedules are very much the same =)
          && It's not just about living well, it's about dying well.

          Comment


          • #6
            If you want your imporvements to speed up then follow his program closely and it will happen. I am loose and fast with how I follow it. I do a 16 hour fast every day but do not watch my calories that close and am erratic with my workouts. I use my annual insurance physical as a measure. So far year in and year out I am maintaining my weight but steadily losing inches off my waist. Last year I went from 33" to 31.5" on my waist measurment. I am hoping to see similar results this year. It is slow and steady but I have no stress on my diet or exercise.
            Check out my primal blog: http://primalroar.posterous.com/

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by kurite View Post
              ......
              3. Not related to lean gains and just a general IF question, I know its unsustainable and I wouldn't do it but there is no drop in metabolism for up to 72 hours into a fast according to the author of lean gains and was wondering if I lift every 2 days, could i fast for the entire time then workout and have a 12 hour feeding window with 36 hour fasts?
              thanks
              I commented on a couple of IF topics in the past few weeks and challenged the proponents to show some real data that explains when you get a change in metabolism due to fasting.

              I won't re-hash it all, but my conclusion was that people promoting fasting don't know about the rT3 hormone and haven't been paying attention. They just don't think they see a problem, but they don't understand enough about it to offer reliable advice. Ignorance is bliss.

              The best we could come up with, after many people worked google over, was a study that showed rT3 increases in the 24-48 hr range. Your mileage may vary due to many things.

              Assuming that one source is accurate, IF for less than 24 hours should not be a problem. This seems logical anyway. It wouldn't seem that nature would need people to become a hormone train wreck just because of one bad day. What you want to think about is longer periods and frequency of IF, and when they cause rT3 to go up.

              This is, unfortunately, something that just doesn't get much attention. I only learned about it because my rT3 levels were elevated and (according to my doc) this was due to a problem with thyroid meds. Another key suspect is elevated cortisol (stress). So, if you suspect any adrenal issues, be more cautious on the length of an IF.

              Comment


              • #8
                16/8 fasting helped me to finally drop below 10% BF. It's slowed up a bit now after 5 weeks, but it's probably because I am more interested in a recomp. I am going to introduce much higher carbs on my two main lifting days, and try to cut fat on other days. Primal does not equal leangains because of the low fat/high carb thing.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by m e g a n foxy View Post
                  iniQuity- how is this working for you? I just started Leangains and our schedules are very much the same =)
                  Well I’m kind of a terrible example for a few reason:

                  - I don’t workout how Martin and his clients presumably workout, with big compound lifts such as squats and bench. The only thing I do with a barbell is deadlifts and sometimes front squats, but only the deadlifts are heavy since on the front squat I’m limited to how much I can clean which is not that much. I work out in my backyard and don’t have a squat rack so I can only clean the bar up to my shoulders.

                  - I don’t follow the dietary advice, at least not closely. Meaning, on workout days I don’t look to go low fat/high carb. I eat almost identically day in and day out (which is mostly a VLC diet, with the occasional sweet potato just for kicks)

                  - I almost never eat directly post workout. I’m usually not hungry, and forcing myself to eat is uncomfortable. I usually cook post work out (helps build up an appetite too) then shower, then eat. Usually 30 mins to an hour post workout.

                  - I am sometimes loose with my diet and recently actually gained like 5lbs of blubber (I haven’t weighed, don’t own a scale, but do feel a tightness on my jeans and the mirror never lies) due to like two weeks of ice cream. Man, I wish ice cream was good for you. I’d be the healthiest, happiest dude on earth. I ate like… 8 pints in the last 2 weeks, and honestly I’m still smiling about it. Despite fasting, I gained weight, so watching what you eat is important at least in my case. I’ve seen success stories on leangains of guys eating burgers, cheesecakes, ice cream, etc and still leaning out ridiculously – I’m jealous to say the least.

                  - I kind of like to work out daily, but not always heavy. I assume I can Leangains style on the days I go heavy, and eat normal (higher fat, much lower carb) every other day.

                  However! Recently a non-board-member Paleo buddy of mine challenged me to a “lean out” friendly contest. He’s also coming off a stint of eatinglikeapig so we’re both motivated to tackle May and we’ve tentatively put mid-June as our “ab date” so I’m thinking of giving Leangains a real shot by … actually doing the program!

                  I’m running into one major issue though, when to work out? Morning or afternoon?

                  Option A: Morning. I could wake up early, take 10g BCAA, workout (fasted obviously), then take another 10g a few hours later, then eat at 1pm with a heavy carb/lower fat meal and then again at 6-7pm as I’m used to. I think this would maximize any potential results coming from a fasted workout.

                  Option B: Afternoon. Say I fast the same way, breaking the fast at 1pm, would a 5:30 (or 6pm) workout truly be fasted? Perhaps so. Either way I could workout at 6pm then eat post workout at 7pm. I see a few issues with option B though, primarily whether the workout is truly fasted, and whether my first meal (1pm) should be a regular fat, low carb meal, or a high carb/low fat meal?

                  I think option A is a little better, but if anybody would like to make a case for B I’m all ears. Perhaps a high carb meal hours before a workout might be beneficial.

                  So, going to start right away on this, should make for a fun month of May. I think I’ll only go high carb twice a week, making those workouts heavy and intense. Going somewhat low fat is going to be hard though, I’ll avoid eggs those days, and just eat meat and potatoes.
                  I used to seriously post here, now I prefer to troll.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by iniQuity View Post
                    - I am sometimes loose with my diet and recently actually gained like 5lbs of blubber (I haven’t weighed, don’t own a scale, but do feel a tightness on my jeans and the mirror never lies) due to like two weeks of ice cream. Man, I wish ice cream was good for you. I’d be the healthiest, happiest dude on earth. I ate like… 8 pints in the last 2 weeks, and honestly I’m still smiling about it. Despite fasting, I gained weight, so watching what you eat is important at least in my case. I’ve seen success stories on leangains of guys eating burgers, cheesecakes, ice cream, etc and still leaning out ridiculously – I’m jealous to say the least.
                    I think that we have to be related in some way. Ice Cream is my weakness for sure. I ate 2 quarts last weekend in 2 days. I am completely off ice cream at this point as it totally derails me in every way. Stay strong brother. If you want to see someone that has documented their change to leangains check out freetheanimal.com. Richard Nikoley has documented his progress and how he follows the program pretty well in his blog.
                    Check out my primal blog: http://primalroar.posterous.com/

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by DFH View Post
                      I commented on a couple of IF topics in the past few weeks and challenged the proponents to show some real data that explains when you get a change in metabolism due to fasting.

                      I won't re-hash it all, but my conclusion was that people promoting fasting don't know about the rT3 hormone and haven't been paying attention. They just don't think they see a problem, but they don't understand enough about it to offer reliable advice. Ignorance is bliss.

                      The best we could come up with, after many people worked google over, was a study that showed rT3 increases in the 24-48 hr range. Your mileage may vary due to many things.

                      Assuming that one source is accurate, IF for less than 24 hours should not be a problem. This seems logical anyway. It wouldn't seem that nature would need people to become a hormone train wreck just because of one bad day. What you want to think about is longer periods and frequency of IF, and when they cause rT3 to go up.

                      This is, unfortunately, something that just doesn't get much attention. I only learned about it because my rT3 levels were elevated and (according to my doc) this was due to a problem with thyroid meds. Another key suspect is elevated cortisol (stress). So, if you suspect any adrenal issues, be more cautious on the length of an IF.
                      I was involved in the periphery of one such discussion, and I distinctly recall providing you with a direct link to a study showing that moderate length IF ( 72 hours or less, I cannot recall at this point, you can easily search for my post ) does not alter T3 or T4 levels, nor does it elevate cortisol. Your reply was that most T3 assays fail to differentiate between T3 and rT3. Fair enough, but I pointed out to you the same thing your doctor did, which is that rT3 correlates with cortisol levels, and a moderate length fast does not elevate cortisol. At this point, this leaves you in the position of basic fear mongering since now you have to go outside the science and postulate a heretofore unknown mechanism whereby the correlation of rT3 with cortisol is severed in normal people without thyroid conditions.

                      See this? This is my gauntlet and I am throwing it down at your feet. Prove it.

                      -PK
                      My blog : cogitoergoedo.com

                      Interested in Intermittent Fasting? This might help: part 1, part 2, part 3.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by iniQuity View Post
                        do you workout in the afternoon? that's the only way I could see myself doing this. I fast typically until 1 or 2pm then eat, then workout around 6pm (so, not entirely fasted I guess) then eat an hour later.
                        Yes, I workout in the afternoon, fasted (well, I take 10g BCAA pre-workout, but only black coffee or water before that). I usually begin my workouts between 3-4, drive home (30 minutes), shower, then eat.

                        From what I recall, if you're going to eat a pre-workout meal, Martin recommends getting ~25% of your daily calorie intake and that the meal be mostly carb with a little bit of protein (similar to post-workout).

                        I may try eating pre-workout again when I run out of BCAA, but I honestly think I perform better on empty. I also love not having to pack a lunch or eat it during the day when I'm at work.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by pklopp View Post
                          I was involved in the periphery of one such discussion, and I distinctly recall providing you with a direct link to a study showing that moderate length IF ( 72 hours or less, I cannot recall at this point, you can easily search for my post ) does not alter T3 or T4 levels, nor does it elevate cortisol. Your reply was that most T3 assays fail to differentiate between T3 and rT3. Fair enough, but I pointed out to you the same thing your doctor did, which is that rT3 correlates with cortisol levels, and a moderate length fast does not elevate cortisol. At this point, this leaves you in the position of basic fear mongering since now you have to go outside the science and postulate a heretofore unknown mechanism whereby the correlation of rT3 with cortisol is severed in normal people without thyroid conditions.

                          See this? This is my gauntlet and I am throwing it down at your feet. Prove it.

                          -PK
                          Ohhhhh, a primal invitation to a scribed swordfight. Can I watch?

                          (Grabs snacks and comfy seat by the fire.)

                          As a hypothyroid I have vested interest.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I've done IF'ing for a couple of months and I've ended up in the hospital. At the time it was suspected it was thyroid... blood work says it isn't, but I'm still kind of sick and low on energy so... I'm kind of curious to this debate as well. I'm still IF'ing with 2 meals a day.

                            I suppose most people are on a 2 meal a day while IF'ing?

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by yodiewan View Post
                              Yes, I workout in the afternoon, fasted (well, I take 10g BCAA pre-workout, but only black coffee or water before that). I usually begin my workouts between 3-4, drive home (30 minutes), shower, then eat.

                              From what I recall, if you're going to eat a pre-workout meal, Martin recommends getting ~25% of your daily calorie intake and that the meal be mostly carb with a little bit of protein (similar to post-workout).

                              I may try eating pre-workout again when I run out of BCAA, but I honestly think I perform better on empty. I also love not having to pack a lunch or eat it during the day when I'm at work.
                              Yeah my only problem is either I work out early, at 7:00 am or late, at 6:00pm so, to me, fasting until that time might be a little much. Also, I'd have to eat close to bed time (10-11pm) and I'm not sure I'd like that either. I think early morning works best for my lifestyle. Besides, if I only strength train twice a week and sprint once a week that's only 3 days out of the week I'd have to deal with any weather issues.
                              I used to seriously post here, now I prefer to troll.

                              Comment

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