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Try telling a bunch of bread makers that gluten is bad (awesome)

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  • #16
    It's just easier to give it up. (As in, I'm going to have a Po' Boy during Superbowl, but wheat isn't anything I want to eat on a regular basis.) This is one change that I didn't/don't really feel when I'm not eating it, but the time when I took a three day break from primal (pizza, pasta, dontcha know), I felt it on the fourth day. I'm not particularly sensitive, but I'm not particularly sensitive to anything. It's just one of those things. From my reading, it doesn't look like grains/gluten are great for you, and I can only eat so much food in a day, so why waste it on such a vapid food?

    Some of my best friends eat bread. heh.
    "Right is right, even if no one is doing it; wrong is wrong, even if everyone is doing it." - St. Augustine

    B*tch-lite

    Who says back fat is a bad thing? Maybe on a hairy guy at the beach, but not on a crab.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by JoanieL View Post
      It's just easier to give it up ... and I can only eat so much food in a day, so why waste it on such a vapid food?
      That's my thought, 100%. I stopped eating bread, rice, beans, etc because I realized I don't need to pad my food with cheap calories. I can also buy into the carb argument, or at least a subset of the carb arguments. Haven't noticed any direct difference in my health from dropping grain except it's harder to sop up meat juice. Mine isn't the only reason of course, and I can only speak for my own experience, but that's kinda the point: like milk, and probably a lot of other foods, it isn't one-size-fits-all. A food I find delicious, like shrimp, may be a health risk for someone else and vice versa.

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      • #18
        I suspect the modern wheat will be the next Big Tobacco. Yup, not all smokers and chewers get cancer, emphasima or other tobacco related illnesses. But a lot do. And I suspect that more studies will be done on wheat and diabetes and slowly the proof will come in, and things will change. And studies on autism, learning disabilities and a whole host of other things will help change attitudes.

        But, look how long it took to change views about tobacco. When it first came to England people were worried then. It took centuries, not decades, to make it be "evil" and yet, people still use it.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Him View Post
          Isn't gluten one of those "trust your body" and YMMV things?

          I've eaten gluten-laden bread for decades. I've baked. I've also gone though long periods without gluten (zero wheat of any kind) not because of paleo or anything like that but because I needed cheap food that stored well and cooked without fancy tools. Rice fit the bill, so I ate lots of rice.
          Gluten is in a hell of a lot of processed and packaged foods these day, just ask any celiac trying to find "convenience" foods.
          How did you find your way onto this forum? Most people arrive via Mark's blog, after reading his book, or through already having an interest in paleo / ancestral health, which are essentially (if not completely) grain and especially gluten free diets (diet as in way of eating, not particularly a way if losing weight).

          Have you read this, or this?

          I never realised that gluten was causing me issues until I completely removed it from my diet. Eating it never caused me any symptoms, but eating other foods certainly did. But once I stopped eating gluten, the other, more nutritious foods (eg. Veggies, onion, garlic) no longer were an issue for me.

          Now I can (but rarely do) eat some gluten containing products, but if I have them too often I start to experience problems digesting those other foods again.
          If you're interested in my (very) occasional updates on how I'm working out and what I'm eating click here.

          Originally posted by tfarny
          If you are new to the PB - please ignore ALL of this stuff, until you've read the book, or at least http://www.marksdailyapple.com/primal-blueprint-101/

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Misabi View Post
            Gluten is in a hell of a lot of processed and packaged foods these day, just ask any celiac trying to find "convenience" foods.
            How did you find your way onto this forum?
            Google. To elaborate: I was looking for additional information to accelerate an exercise/health putsch I kicked off recently. MDA kept showing up in that research so I did some reading and came to the conclusion that, with the exception of one major area, "primal" was very close to what I was already doing and/or had a long-standing preference for. The big exception, when I thought about it, was mostly a reflection of old economic realities and habit more than any deep desire. Said another way, I have lived through periods where the only way I could afford even 1000 kcal a day was to buy 50lb bags of rice and use that for the bulk of my calories, and my food buying habits never really changed when my financial situation improved. In my current situation it doesn't make sense to try to extend my food budget with bulk staple foods (rice, beans, wheat, etc) since the financial difference is negligible compared to my overall budget. So I dispassionately cut them, not because they are bad but because I don't need what they are best at providing - cheap calories.


            Originally posted by Misabi View Post
            Have you read this, or this?
            Those appear to be the same. Not specifically/yes in spirit and tone.

            Originally posted by Misabi View Post
            I never realised that gluten was causing me issues until I completely removed it from my diet. Eating it never caused me any symptoms, but eating other foods certainly did. But once I stopped eating gluten, the other, more nutritious foods (eg. Veggies, onion, garlic) no longer were an issue for me.
            Yes, it seems perfectly reasonable that some people really need to shake things up to get past long standing food conditioning/habits.

            For myself, I have never had any issues with veggies, onion, garlic, or you name it. OK, so there was one time back when I was learning to cook and I misunderstood "15 cloves garlic" to mean "15 heads garlic" and everyone avoided me for a week, but that wasn't because I was experiencing "food issues" the way you mean. From childhood I have eaten everything from hostess twinkies to raw beef (it wasn't common, but I recall we had it a few times before I was 10) to vegetables of every description, and very few have any real effect beyond CICO. I mean, durains stink and raw fat can trigger gagging but that's not what you are talking about. Not having experienced it, I must constantly fight my tendency to dismiss all reported "food issues" as "parental authority issues" or plain old Placebo Effect. It's like so many other areas of life, from race to gender to height...I can't really see things from a 5'3" Caucasian female perspective, or a 6'5" Asian male perspective, because I'm not those people and I never will be, so I must accept that the experiences those people report are valid even though they are different from anything I have personally known. I accept that you have had issues eating vegetables even though it is something I have never personally experienced and I honestly don't even know what "issues" means in this context. I don't know what menstruation is like either. Such is life. I'm glad you found a way to enjoy things that I have enjoyed for as long as I can remember. I just can't bring myself to believe that your experience justifies bashing people on a baking forum for having a different perspective.

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            • #21
              The problem is you have gluten and the highly inflammation drive that most grains cause...it is a long term effect and it cannot be denied.
              Eating primal is not a diet, it is a way of life.
              PS
              Don't forget to play!

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Him View Post
                Obviously I could be struck by a meteor tonight as I sleep. That's a controllable risk, too. With minor lifestyle changes (moving into a salt mine for example) I could severely reduce the impact of such an impact. Is it worth doing?

                It's a matter of odds. If the odds of being struck by a meteor were 1:1, then yes by all means let's move underground. 1:100... again, probably a good idea to take some preventive steps. 1:1000? It would be smart. 1:10,000? It's not crazy. 1:100,000? Eh.1:1,000,000? No, the risks involved in taking action are probably higher than the risks you are avoiding. 1:1,000,000,000? Now that would be crazy.

                So what are the odds of waking up with a gluten-induced autoimmune disease tomorrow? I know a few people with autoimmune diseases so it could happen...but at least two of them tried gluten free and it didn't help so you can't automatically blame gluten anyway.

                It's like lactose intolerance. You may be lactose intolerant. Avoiding dairy may be very important for you. That doesn't mean dairy is a problem for me.

                As for micro-tears and the like... that's interesting. I'd find it more compelling if I had experienced any symptoms myself, but I'll accept it as somewhat of a theoretical basis (assuming it isn't pseudoscientific BS like a lot of the anti-salt, anti-fat, anti-meat, anti-whatever-I-don't-like ranting).
                I cut out all gluten containing foods 3+ years ago now. Asthma improved radically (not gone, but no longer any need for steroids ). My parents thought it a fad and made it obvious that they didn't approve.

                Now, my mother is 84 and has had ongoing health issues for a lot of years - arthritis being a major one, as well as many others which I would guess were mainly inflammatory responses. She rang me on Tuesday - her Doctor (GP here in the UK) has started her on a gluten free regime!

                Obviously, both she and my father have eaten wheat all of their lives - bread, pastry, dumplings, cakes etc (she is an excellent cook) and showed no symptoms of wheat intolerance for years. Then aches and pains began to develop, the inevitable creeping weight gain, until now, her GP has made a link with wheat. I am hoping that she will stop cooking pastry etc for my father too - you never know, it might help with his growing dementia problems too.

                But at least she is able, knowing that I have been gluten free for quite a while, to ring me and ask "is porridge still OK" (no!) or "Can I make a roux sauce?" (no -use either arrowroot or potato flour) etc. Which is a help that many starting the gluten free route don't have. And she is already starting to suggest to my sisters that perhaps this that or the other problem they have would go away if they gave up gluten!!!

                So - you may have no problems at the moment. But who can tell what will occur as time goes on - and it is harder to roll back the clock than to take steps now.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Dirlot View Post
                  The problem is you have gluten and the highly inflammation drive that most grains cause...it is a long term effect and it cannot be denied.
                  I must be missing something. Where do I have gluten? I have had long (6+ month) stretches without gluten in my diet. There can't be much in my diet now, without wheat.

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                  • #24
                    The Joy of Gluten-Free, Sugar-Free Baking: 80 Low-Carb Recipes that Offer Solutions for Celiac Disease, Diabetes, and Weight Loss: Peter Reinhart, Denene Wallace: 9781607741169: Amazon.com: Books

                    I heard an interview with one of the authors, probably America's top authority on bread baking. I have taken classes with him, he actually talked about GMO grain and the dangers.

                    http://maggiesfeast.wordpress.com/
                    Check out my blog. Hope to share lots of great recipes and ideas!

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                    • #25
                      To me it is about far more than just gluten but also the anti-nutrients. Modern grains, to my mind, are toxic and "just" manipulating them even further to get rid of the gluten doesn't solve the problem. Just because our bodies find some way of dealing with them doesn't change that. I don't mention this to CW folks because nothing good would come of this approach, but this is my perspective.

                      It is good, however, to read that some of the baking authorities are aware of the change in wheat over time.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Him View Post
                        Well now that is interesting. You think that my disbelief of the theory you are supporting predisposes me to disease. By what mechanism? Bad mental energy???
                        Occam's razor. I claim you are more likely to suffer gluten-induced autoimmune disease than I am because you eat the gluten (or am I misreading you?) whereas I don't. Not really a major leap in logic.
                        The Champagne of Beards

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by RichMahogany View Post
                          Occam's razor. I claim you are more likely to suffer gluten-induced autoimmune disease than I am because you eat the gluten (or am I misreading you?) whereas I don't. Not really a major leap in logic.
                          More like preemptive confirmation bias.

                          I have repeatedly said I am not currently eating gluten.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Him View Post
                            Isn't gluten one of those "trust your body" and YMMV things?

                            I've eaten gluten-laden bread for decades. I've baked. I've also gone though long periods without gluten (zero wheat of any kind) not because of paleo or anything like that but because I needed cheap food that stored well and cooked without fancy tools. Rice fit the bill, so I ate lots of rice.

                            I have never felt ANY evidence that - TO ME - gluten is either harmful or helpful compared to other protein (or anything else in my diet). I'll accept the argument that fresh vegetables are less energy-dense and nutrient-rich, that starches and sugars are metabolized differently or don't provide long term satiety, that my socioeconomic situation is such that cheap bulk foods are now unwise and unneccessary, and so on, but the idea that gluten is somehow especially bad for me? No, it doesn't jive with my personal experience. I don't have any food alergies. There are foods I have never enjoyed (e.g. peanut butter...I didn't like it when I was 6, and I just don't like it now) but I'm not alergic to those foods. I have friends who do have honest food alergies and every time we eat together I'm reminded of how glad I am not to share that affliction.

                            I'm not going to say that gluten is great for celiacs or other gluten-sensitive people, any more than walnuts are great for someone with a walnut alergy, but the fact that YOU are alergic to walnuts, or shrimp, or gluten, or whatever, doesn't mean that I am, or that those foods are bad in any way. If you are of a healthy weight (which MANY bread-eaters are) and in otherwise good health (which, again, is true for MANY bread-eaters), and don't have other issues, then enjoy your bread, gluten and all. If you find you have a problem, make changes. Is that wrong?
                            It's basically in the same category as dairy. There's no doubt it CAN be problematic for many. You'll see thousands of stories about people cutting both out of their diet and saying how they feel so much better. Although when people cut out gluten and dairy they usually wipe out a lot of other nasty additive and preservatives that usually go along with those foods as well. You'll also see lots of reasoning of why it's linked to autoimmune disorders and how it's slowly killing you even if you don't notice. It's worth cutting out for a while to see if it makes a difference, but if it makes no difference and you enjoy those foods then you should still include them in your diet if you want. There's potential risks to nearly everything you eat. I know people who won't eat seafood because they think they think mercury is one of the biggest health hazards around.

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