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Help me debate a vegan friend on facebook

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  • #31
    Eating meat doesn't cause diabetes (my favorite bit!). i do think that eating a vegan diet can lead to neuroticism, probably as a result of a deficient diet. If you state your piece, it will click into place later, after the diet stops working for that person. don't expect to convince someone instantly. Nicely done. BTW, grain and soy farmers kill untold numbers of of gophers, birds, rats, mice and rabbits every year. I'm not sure what vegans think that 'pesticides' do, organic or conventional.
    Last edited by fitmom; 01-24-2011, 10:32 AM.

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    • #32
      I believe my avatar pic says enough...
      My weak attempt at a journal:http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread35809.html

      M/30y/190#

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      • #33
        There is no way for Vegans to get sufficient B-12 vitamins with the way they eat.

        It is possible to get B-12 from Bee pollen but that is exploiting animals so Vegans don't usually consume it. (Vegetarians do consume it though). The B-12 comes from the bees so if you exclude the Bees from the collection process, you lose the B-12.

        Some Vegans get B-12 by not washing their Vegetables. They will get some B-12 that way but only if the veggies have been fertilized by manure (B-12 is produced by Bacteria that live in the intestines). Again, this is exploiting animals so this wouldn't be permitted by strict Vegans.

        The only way they could get their B-12 without exploiting animals would be for them to eat their own excrements (or use it as fertilizers) much like the Mammoths did. (E-coli risk). Even then, you are exploiting the bacteria that produces the B-12 so even this would not be permitted by the Vegan life style.

        There are no plant source of B-12. (There are claims that some Algae have it but that is debatable).

        It is also difficult for them to get sufficient vitamin D in the winter.
        Last edited by Acteon; 01-24-2011, 11:05 AM.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Psychicsinlove View Post
          (snip)Veganism IS like a religion. They have to get nasty to explain why they are (still) sick and fat. I did Veganism last year and was the heaviest I've ever been! Joint pain was no fun, either. No wonder I was so cranky!
          I stumbled in here after a month of trying to do mostly vegan meals. It was an environmental thing. After that time, my hands were so swollen I couldn't get my wedding ring on, my face looked like the moon, and my body looked like I was getting ready to birth a carb baby. No thanks. And it was all whole grains, legumes and green veg. I wasn't a pastatarian or anything. I've been doing the primal thing for about a week now. Ring's back on. Face and tummy are back to normal. Most importantly, I feel awesome. I am hypothyroid (autoimmune based) so I'm interested to see if going totally grain free will help that. I tried gluten free awhile back and my test results weren't any better. In fact, they got worse. But I was eating a lot of other grain products.

          The more I look at the research behind primal eating, the more I realize the damage the grain-heavy SAD has done to people I love. My mother died from progressive autoimmune issues at 67. She was insulin resistant. She struggled with her weight for years. My dad is a type 2 diabetic. He has lung cancer now despite not having smoked in several decades. They weren't unlike most Americans trying to eat healthily according to CW. They'd have a whole grain breakfast like oatmeal or wheat toast. Lunches were sandwiches on wheat bread. And dinner was always a meat, starch and veg. All the food groups represented. They avoided fats. Ate lean meats, mostly white (and far less than they ate when they were younger). Eschewed butter in favor of canola oil. Yet here they were facing life threatening illnesses and not even 70. The medical establishment wants us to believe that our escalating heart disease, obesity, and cancer rates have to do with eating too much meat and fat, but we're eating less than ever and the rates keep rising. My parents certainly were and look what it got them. I do not want to go down that road.

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          • #35
            This is what vegans don't get: In order to be a tr00 elite vegan warrior, said vegan should stop consuming any foods entirely, be naked, never wash anything including oneself, and never move because all of those actions kill something, even if it's bacteria. Even in death vegans fail, because they themselves become the food of another being.

            Oh wait wait, you only limit the suffering of SOME animals? you half-assed environmentalist, get the F off my planet.
            I used to seriously post here, now I prefer to troll.

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            • #36
              Originally posted by DaisyEater View Post
              ..snip..The medical establishment wants us to believe that our escalating heart disease, obesity, and cancer rates have to do with eating too much meat and fat, but we're eating less than ever and the rates keep rising. My parents certainly were and look what it got them. I do not want to go down that road.
              This, to me, is a truly said affair. I'm still quite young at 20 years old, so I don't see the health hazards of eating the CW way. I do, however, remember being taught CW in school and actually training for specific sports, I would gain weight and under-perform on even the most CW strict diet. In one week of going absolutely strict primal, I've lost 6 pounds, and that's even with being fully hydrated. I can run faster, further, and outperform my friends now. I'm in the process of trying to convince my mother, as my dad is Primal, however she seems to think spaghetti and toast is a staple of the American diet, and wholeheatedly believes in the truly sad gov't controlled Food Pyramid.

              Tiny rant over now :-D

              Back on track, tell your vegan friend the cuter the animal the tastier they are.

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              • #37
                You can point out to your friend the number of people writing to the Apple who found their migraines, their fibromyalgia, their insomnia, their indigestion, and their arthritis (some had one of these things, some had a number of them) cleared up when they ditched grains and sugar, and came right back again when they slipped and ate bread again.
                First of all, I'll just agree that this guy has no interest in hearing opposing views. The most I would say is... "Talk to me in 5-10 years when your health has declined to a point that you are looking for REAL answers for health and well-being." Then I'd feel sorry for him and move on.

                Secondly, I was surprised when I joined MDA by the large number of former vegetarians who are here... I was also a vegetarian for 10 years. Tried vegan several times, but it always triggered some horrible malady which required me to stop. All that vegetarianism/veganism ever got me was fat, tired and sick. (And that "not trying hard enough" crap is ridiculous!) There are many of us with this same experience, and now we are forced to undo the damage. If he feels that this the best way for people to live, then I pity him. If he feels that animals and the earth cannot be "saved" any other way, I pity him. Then I move on... I have leftover ham to eat. Delicious.

                Edit: Some people can get by on a vegetarian diet, and that's great for them. Lots of us cannot. Sorry for the rant, I was confronted with similar "debates" recently, and it got my blood boiling. I wish the OP best of luck.
                Last edited by Jen AlcesAlces; 01-24-2011, 01:06 PM.
                Jen, former Midwesterner, living in the middle of nowhere.

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by MariaNYC View Post
                  In my experience, vegans/vegetarians are much more likely to pay attention to other (former) vegans/vegetarians, so I would link your friend to this eye-opening post:

                  http://voraciouseats.com/2010/11/19/a-vegan-no-more/

                  "Many of you know that I have recently been struggling for the first time in my life with health problems. When I discovered that my problems were a direct result of my vegan diet I was devastated. 2 months ago, after learning the hard way that not everyone is capable of maintaining their health as a vegan, I made one of the most difficult decisions of my life and gave up veganism and returned to eating an omnivorous diet. My health immediately returned. ... "
                  To a vegan there's nothing worse than an ex-vegan... lol They tune them out even harder than they do people who were never vegans to begin with.

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                  • #39
                    true. i mean, when i was no longer vegan, people who held me in contempt before (for not being vegan enough or really, not being an animal rights activist, because i do not believe in animal rights and never have) held me in even greater contempt.

                    it's amazing that that they have the time and capacity to manage to much contempt, but hey, it's their cortisol levels, right? lol

                    end of the day, i don't really care to debate about it. i was vegan for spiritual/ethical reasons (which had to do with sauchic practices of yoga, some jain influences in my process, etc), but ultimately, it was not about the science/health, etc. i was healthy for about 5 years, then it went haywire. added in eggs and dairy (raw). got better. when pregnant, craved meats (very specific meats at very specific times), and so i ate them (about 5-8 times). then went back to ovo-lacto vegetarian. then primal in -- Nov/Dec sometime. i have never seen faster results from the changes than with primal. no pains and struggles (avoided the carb flu!), but amazing changes in my body composition in a couple of weeks.

                    so, you know, it works. i liked the premise (i'm not too concerned about the science), and i wanted to see if it would go well. DH seemed to be having some trouble with grains, so. . .giving them up made sense.

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                    • #40
                      Tell them you met a former vegan here who developed crohn's disease, type 1 diabetes, and hashimoto's thyroiditis, all while being vegan. (That would be me). I can tell them firsthand that the vegan diet will not prevent disease.

                      I will tell you that they are right about veganism being more environmentally sound than meat-eating. The numbers show that eating grains takes a lot fewer resources than eating meat...I clung to that idea even as my health deteriorated. Upon getting the 3rd diagnosis of chronic disease in less than one year, I knew something was wrong. I'm glad that I found Mark's site when I did.

                      The only vegan diet I know of that seems like a good plan is the one in Eat to Live. It's heavy on the greens and other veggies, light on the fruit and nuts and oils, with zero grains, sugars and starches. The only problem is that it's very difficult to get a lot of calories unless you eat plenty of beans, which give me IBS symptoms. So doesn't it follow that primal is the answer?
                      Type 1 Diabetic. Controlling blood sugar through primal life.

                      2012 Goals:
                      Maintain A1c of 6.0 or lower
                      More dietary fat, less carbs, moderate protein
                      LHT and sprint as per PB fitness
                      Play more!

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                      • #41
                        when i was vegetarian i was pretty skinny but i also didn't have a car (not really by choice!) so i had to walk a lot. I felt really healthy. I never exercised or did sports so I don't really know how "fit" i was. But after 3 yrs, I just got tired of it. I like eating meat. Plus i was rooming with a vegan & her weird eating habits, slight sickly appearance and constant colds just wore me out & forced me to break my vegetarian stint with a trip to popeye's! oh greasy transfatty spicy crispy skin bliss. OK i def could have made a better meal choice there. anyway...

                        you can't argue with people about their food choices. Everyone has their own reasons.

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                        • #42
                          "I have YET to see one single vegetable, fruit, or whole food linked to heart disease, cancer, or obesity. "

                          And I am yet to see a problem stem from quality meat consumption. I mean, REAL meat.
                          By The Ancestral Fire - insights and opinions regarding primal living.

                          As a friend once said, "Bacon is the Journey of food. You may pretend to hate it, but secretly you still love it."

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                          • #43
                            I hate to generalize and lump all vegans into my observation, however, I will anyway, the vast majority I have been in contact with are not the healthiest looking individuals and always look tired or "suppressed" like their bodies are starving for some nutrient that's missing in their diet.

                            On a lighter note I was fully expecting to see "Vegans = bad hunter!"
                            You'll never see the light if you're in someone else's shadow, or said another way, life is like a dog sled team, if you're not the lead dog, the scenery never changes

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by walkingbird View Post
                              "I have YET to see one single vegetable, fruit, or whole food linked to heart disease, cancer, or obesity. "

                              And I am yet to see a problem stem from quality meat consumption. I mean, REAL meat.
                              This. Meat can be a whole food if you do it right.

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by theoracle09 View Post
                                This, to me, is a truly said affair. I'm still quite young at 20 years old, so I don't see the health hazards of eating the CW way. I do, however, remember being taught CW in school and actually training for specific sports, I would gain weight and under-perform on even the most CW strict diet.
                                What's CW ? Country Western diet ?

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