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  • Body Ph, Cancer, and Veganism

    I've been Primal for about 2 months now, and have been doing a lot of thinking about what I used to believe was the key to health and longevity. My husband and I have done more than our fair share of alternative cancer therapies and prevention--looking at everything from laetrile to the Budwig Diet (and everything in between). It is well known that cancer cannot survive in an alkaline environment, which is why most of these alternative therapies rely heavily--if not SOLELY--on raw, vegan foods. The Hippocrates Institute, for instance, uses raw juicing along with a raw diet to quite literally cure people--stopping tumor growth and reversing it in its tracks.

    My question is, how does the Primal Diet affect our body's Ph? I see many people eating meat by the tons--not unlike the Adkins diet. This will cause an acidic environment in the body, correct? How do you find a balance?

    FTR, I have been feeling terrific on this diet, and I've lost about 10lbs so far. My concern is that I'm more motivated by vanity and "looking good," than long-term health and disease prevention. I eat TONS of veggies, but I'm wondering if it's enough to offset the meat/fat acidity. Am I over-thinking all of this?
    Results Pics:
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    Mandolin's Primammalian Cave Wall

    Vegetarian=an old Indian word meaning "lousy hunter"

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  • #2
    Tumours don't like ketones either.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by chronyx View Post
      Tumours don't like ketones either.
      True And a more Primal answer would probably be "Grok, most likely, did NOT die of cancer." I guess what I am curious to find out is, if eating a Primal diet is as effective at disease cure and prevention as all of the tried-and-true alternative "CW" treatments.
      Results Pics:
      http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum...d6138-245.html

      Mandolin's Primammalian Cave Wall

      Vegetarian=an old Indian word meaning "lousy hunter"

      iHerb.com $5 off first order code: AMA998

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      • #4
        The body self-regulates ph with calcium/magnesium/potassium anyway I believe.

        Remember tons of veggies and tons of meat is primal...they're not mutually exclusive.

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        • #5
          I don't recall where I've read this, but my understanding is that acid pH is caused by meat *and grains* -- take away the grains, meat is not much of an issue. And that veggies alkalinize. So meat + veggies with no grains leads to the balance you want. (And Atkins stresses veggies too, by the way, only limits them somewhat strictly in the induction phase. There is enormous overlap between Atkins or other low-carb plans done with whole foods and Primal.)

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          • #6
            Science has shown repeatedly: cancer thrives on glucose. This is why so many uncontrolled diabetics (like my late father) develop cancer.

            If you aren't providing the cancer cells with glucose, they die off. They can't use ketones because the mitochondria in cancer cells are malformed and can't process ketones or fatty acids. So the best cancer prevention is to NOT EAT CARBS, especially processed carbs that result in quick shots of glucose to the bloodstream.
            Primal eating in a nutshell: If you are hungry, eat Primal food until you are satisfied (not stuffed). Then stop. Wait until you're hungry again. Repeat.

            Looking for my Cholesterol Primer? Here it is: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum...mer-(Attempt-2)


            Ditch the scale!: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread33283.html

            My Success Story: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread30615.html

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            • #7
              Paleo is heavily pro-alkaline (one of the differences between primal and paleo; and probably another way Mark Sisson tries to simplify the transition for the metabolically deranged -- keep it simple). Just be conscious of your ph when planning meals and you will be fine. Additionally some of the yummiest foods are also super alkalines: red wine, spinach, figs etc.
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              • #8
                Ultimately, good mineral status is what keeps us alkaline (and meat does have minerals). You can be TOO alkaline, though and that's not healthy. Some people's saliva ph becomes more alkaline when they eat more protein. It's not as cut and dried as "The Ph Miracle" makes it sound. Urine Ph will naturally be more acidic than saliva, since we excrete acid wastes.
                http://www.prettyinprimal.blogspot.com

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                • #9
                  Thanks for all of the responses. I think I just needed some validation that what I'm doing isn't going to come back and bite me in the ass I tried PCRM's 21-day vegan kickstart last summer. I tried to keep a positive attitude. I tried to keep up a blog about my vegan experience:http://smalltownhealth.wordpress.com/. It ended up not being fun, and I soon gave up both endeavors--lifestyle & blog. If you check out the blog, you'll notice the TONS of grains I was eating. A friend had been telling me about The Primal Blueprint, and we DID have a whole side of grass-fed beef in our freezer, so I decided to give it a shot. From weight-loss perspective, it's the best decision I've ever made. The food tastes great, and I don't have to worry about eating the things I love--butter, eggs, bacon...I could go on here And now, after reading your responses, I feel much better about the long-term health benefits, as well!
                  Results Pics:
                  http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum...d6138-245.html

                  Mandolin's Primammalian Cave Wall

                  Vegetarian=an old Indian word meaning "lousy hunter"

                  iHerb.com $5 off first order code: AMA998

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                  • #10
                    Red wine alkaline? :O Any sources/links? Please make this thrue :P

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Mandolin View Post
                      True And a more Primal answer would probably be "Grok, most likely, did NOT die of cancer." I guess what I am curious to find out is, if eating a Primal diet is as effective at disease cure and prevention as all of the tried-and-true alternative "CW" treatments.
                      Eating a diet as close as possible to that which we *evolved* eating will be, de facto, the most healthy diet possible. Nothing else will come close.

                      Katherine



                      iherb referral code CIL457- $5 off first order

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                      • #12
                        OK, can someone explain the whole body pH concept?

                        I believe that the pH of blood and bodily fluids is EXTREMELY tightly controlled by homeostasis - hence the crisis if pH varies. This Q/A is my understanding http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives...9555.Gb.r.html

                        So if pH is so invariable, where does this idea of acidic and alkaline diets come from? Everything is processed in your (acidic) stomach and then your (alkaline) intestines......so everything you digest will be buffered.

                        Now - I can understand that the chemicals required FOR the chemical buffering have to come from somewhere - but this is separate to the "eating x will make you alkaline" meme.

                        Thoughts?

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                        • #13
                          re: Alkaline == good

                          http://www.thepaleodiet.com/nutritio...ols/acid.shtml

                          additionally

                          Alkalinity Decreases Cortisol & Increases Bone

                          --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                          Neutralization of Western diet inhibits bone resorption independently of K intake and reduces cortisol secretion in humans.

                          Maurer M, Riesen W, Muser J, Hulter HN, Krapf R.
                          Medizinische Universitätsklinik und Zentrallabor, Kantonsspital Bruderholz, CH-4101 Bruderholz/Basel, Switzerland.
                          A Western-type diet is associated with osteoporosis and calcium nephrolithiasis. On the basis of observations that calcium retention and inhibition of bone resorption result from alkali administration, it is assumed that the acid load inherent in this diet is responsible for increased bone resorption and calcium loss from bone. However, it is not known whether the dietary acid load acts directly or indirectly (i.e., via endocrine changes) on bone ****bolism. It is also unclear whether alkali administration affects bone resorption/calcium balance directly or whether alkali-induced calcium retention is dependent on the cation (i.e., potassium) supplied with administered base. The effects of neutralization of dietary acid load (equimolar amounts of NaHCO(3) and KHCO(3) substituted for NaCl and KCl) in nine healthy subjects (6 men, 3 women) under ****bolic balance conditions on calcium balance, bone markers, and endocrine systems relevant to bone [glucocorticoid secretion, IGF-1, parathyroid hormone (PTH)/1,25(OH)(2) vitamin D and thyroid hormones] were studied. Neutralization for 7 days induced a significant cumulative calcium retention (10.7 +/- 0.4 mmol) and significantly reduced the urinary excretion of deoxypyridinoline, pyridinoline, and n-telopeptide. Mean daily plasma cortisol decreased from 264 +/- 45 to 232 +/- 43 nmol/l (P = 0.032), and urinary excretion of tetrahydrocortisol (THF) decreased from 2,410 +/- 210 to 2,098 +/- 190 microg/24 h (P = 0.027). No significant effect was found on free IGF-1, PTH/1,25(OH)(2) vitamin D, or thyroid hormones. An acidogenic Western diet results in mild ****bolic acidosis in association with a state of cortisol excess, altered divalent ion ****bolism, and increased bone resorptive indices. Acidosis-induced increases in cortisol secretion and plasma concentration may play a role in mild acidosis-induced alterations in bone ****bolism and possibly in osteoporosis associated with an acidogenic Western diet.
                          additionally I'm pretty much a proponent of anything Robb Wolf advocates. Except drinking coffee until you have hallucinations -_-

                          there's plenty of info via google on acid/base benefits - RW claims inbalance causes kidney stones, osteoporosis, auto immune issues etc ad nauseum

                          re: biochemistry of alkalinization

                          No idea

                          Robb wolf discusses some interesting stuff: the process by which net acid foods (like lime juice) gets converted to basic inside the liver. I don't know the science.
                          Last edited by TheFastCat; 01-17-2011, 12:58 PM.
                          ad astra per aspera

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by NorthernMonkeyGirl View Post
                            OK, can someone explain the whole body pH concept?

                            I believe that the pH of blood and bodily fluids is EXTREMELY tightly controlled by homeostasis - hence the crisis if pH varies. This Q/A is my understanding http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives...9555.Gb.r.html

                            So if pH is so invariable, where does this idea of acidic and alkaline diets come from? Everything is processed in your (acidic) stomach and then your (alkaline) intestines......so everything you digest will be buffered.

                            Now - I can understand that the chemicals required FOR the chemical buffering have to come from somewhere - but this is separate to the "eating x will make you alkaline" meme.

                            Thoughts?
                            Blood Ph IS maintained within a very tight range but, according to Ph theory, it's done at the expense of things like bones- for example, if the blood Ph veers too acidic, minerals will be leached from bone tissue to buffer blood Ph. Excess acid in the saliva or urine could indicate that the body is having to work harder to keep the blood Ph in range.
                            So, the acid/alkaline thing refers to saliva and urine- not blood.

                            As far as foods we eat, Ph value is determined by the ash residue after the food has been fully metabolized by the body. That's why lemons, for example, despite being acidic tasting, can be called "alkaline"- they leave an alkaline ash residue.
                            http://www.prettyinprimal.blogspot.com

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by hazyjane View Post
                              Blood Ph IS maintained within a very tight range but, according to Ph theory, it's done at the expense of things like bones- for example, if the blood Ph veers too acidic, minerals will be leached from bone tissue to buffer blood Ph. Excess acid in the saliva or urine could indicate that the body is having to work harder to keep the blood Ph in range.
                              So, the acid/alkaline thing refers to saliva and urine- not blood.

                              As far as foods we eat, Ph value is determined by the ash residue after the food has been fully metabolized by the body. That's why lemons, for example, despite being acidic tasting, can be called "alkaline"- they leave an alkaline ash residue.
                              I really don't understand this "alkaline ash" residue thing. how do they determine what has an alkaline ash, and what doesn't? because if you test lemon with a pH strip, it will certainly be acidic (as in, the pH is lower than 7. iirc its pH is 4.5 or something like that).

                              as far as leaching minerals from the bones to buffer, this isn't necessarily unhealthy. bone material is in a constant state of tearing down and rebuilding through the activity of osteoclasts and osteoblasts respectively. this is a normal and important function of bone tissue, and insures that the bones are strong and healthy. the activity of osteoclasts and osteoblasts is regulated by hormones (such as cholecalciferol/vitamin d3). i haven't seen any evidence that this is regulated by diet directly (of course diet impacts hormone levels). extracellular pH is buffered by bicarbonate and ammonia, while intracellular pH is buffered by proteins and phosphate. i'm not sure that the minerals which build bones have anything to do with buffering pH (with the exception of phosphorous- maybe someone with more knowledge in chemistry can elaborate for us). if phosphorus plays a role in buffering, we need to remember that meat is an important dietary source of phosphorus.

                              personally, the more i read about this alternative view of acid/base balance, and which foods have what kind of ash, the harder it is for me to believe. i guess the crux of the issue is how do they determine what has an acidic ash, and what has an alkaline ash? if someone can show me a detailed description of how this is determined, maybe i would be more likely to take it seriously.
                              my primal journal:
                              http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum...Primal-Journal

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