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We got our VAP results-good m

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  • We got our VAP results-good m

    Good news and bad news

    My results of being primal for 4 months were great!
    TC 215
    LDL 134
    HDL 69
    VLDL 13
    TG 59
    LDL+VLDL 147
    apoB100 93
    LDL-R 117 *
    Lp (a) 12 *
    IDL 5
    IDL + VLDL3 13
    HDL-2 15
    HDL-3 53
    VLDL-3 8
    LDL Density Pattern A

    Very happy with this!

    My husband-not good news
    We have been eating the same. Strict primal, regular primal exercise...

    His results:

    * means high

    LDL 239 *
    HDL 55
    VLDL 22 *
    Total C 317*
    Triglyceride 99
    LDL+vldl 261*
    Apob100 175*
    LDL-r 226*
    lp(a) 0.0
    Idl 13
    Idl+ vldl3 25
    Hdl-2 12
    Hdl-3 43
    Vldl-3 12*
    LDL density pattern B

    His grandfathers on both sides died of heart attack or heart issues. Uncles on both sides have had heart attacks, his dad is currently battling high cholesterol, high blood pressure.
    My husband is ReadyToGrok if you want to look at his journal
    Right now our plan is to add on Coqu10 maybe niacin? Please comment. If you have family history of heart disease is primal diet not right? We don't want to go back to grains. What do we do?
    Last edited by Momto3; 10-13-2010, 03:59 PM. Reason: Hit post before I finished title & added my full VAP results
    Favorite Mark Quote: "I train to play."

    June 2010: 168.6 -size 16
    Current: 155 - size 10/12
    Goal:135 - size 8

    My Journal

  • #2
    I'm not an expert but thought I'd bump to allow people who know what they are talking about to advise.

    One thing I would ask is do you have any previous numbers to compare these to? Is it possible that although your husband's numbers may not look that great they are actually an improvement on what he had before?

    You might also want to take a look at Griff's thread on cholesterol -
    Last edited by Mollymoe; 10-12-2010, 05:20 AM. Reason: adding link


    • #3
      Wow, this has me scared to see my NMR results I am waiting on. You can modify the PB diet and still not eat grains to accomplish your goals. I would think reducing the saturated fats might help. However, first look at the carb intake. Is your husband eating a lot of carbs, even though they are primal?

      Coqu10 is not a bad idea, so start that as well. What about Vitamin D levels? Fish oil?


      • #4
        Here are his past numbers:
        4/30/09 6/6/10 10/4/10
        TC 267 229 305
        TRI 125 100 102
        HDL 53 44 55
        LDL 189 165 230

        TC/HDL 5.03 5.2 5.55
        TRI/HDL 2.36 2.27 1.85
        LDL/HDL 3.57 3.0 4.18

        At age 28 (10 years ago) he was diagnosed with high cholesterol. we tried the low fat, whole grain diet plus exercise, but that didn't have effect. So he started on a very low dose of statins. It brought the numbers into the "normal" range. We don't have the data about the ratios though. fast forward to April 2009. He had run out of statins and was off of them for awhile. Got cholesterol tested....put back on statins.June 2010 was on statins and right before going off of them and starting PB. Oct 2010 is after 4 months of strict primal. Supplements include fish oil, vitamin D, vit a min E, multi and probiotics. We have fully embraced the primal lifestyle. He is 6' 180lbs so not grossly overweight. He has 20% body fat.

        We are starting to look into genetic small LDL as Dr. Davis talks about on his Heart Scan Blog. He will start the CoQu10 and I think we'll pick up ome niacin.

        Please, please, if you have history of heart disease in your family, don't rely on the TG/HDL ratio. ReadyToGrok's ratios have been fine .....but the VAP shows a different story.
        Favorite Mark Quote: "I train to play."

        June 2010: 168.6 -size 16
        Current: 155 - size 10/12
        Goal:135 - size 8

        My Journal


        • #5
          [QUOTE=john_e_turner_ii;236341]Wow, this has me scared to see my NMR results I am waiting on.[QUOTE] Do you have history of heart disease in your family? I hope your numbers are mine were. We have been eating essentially the same thing. Maybe he hasn't eaten as much nuts as me....but he's been even more strict with sugar than I have. I think there is something genetic going on. We plan to give this another 3 months and retest to see how he's doing. With a grandfather dying at age 45 from heart attack and all the other family history, we just don't want to play around with it for too long...and yet we are not a believer in statins.....we have really like the PB. If we cut the saturated fat we risk him not making enough HDL.....maybe cut back on saturated fat and load up on olive oil and nut oil???
          Favorite Mark Quote: "I train to play."

          June 2010: 168.6 -size 16
          Current: 155 - size 10/12
          Goal:135 - size 8

          My Journal


          • #6
            In your place, I'd be sure his Vitamin D status is good, and especially magnesium. He could use "magnesium oil", a brine which you rub on your skin. It absorbs more easily than by mouth, and avoids gut problems which magnesium often causes.

            He should take ubiquinol, which is a more usable form of CoQ10, and he should take a lot of it, since statins work against it. Statins are such bad news!


            • #7
              Originally posted by Momto3 View Post
              LDL 239 *
              Apob100 175*
              Younis et al have documented an extraordinary variation in glycatability between large and small LDL, with small LDL showing an 8-fold increased potential.
              It may be interesting to buy a cheap blood sugar monitor and see how his post prandial blood sugars are. It'll be in everyone's best interest to be sure that Apob isn't glycating.

              Davis on testing post prandial blood glucose:

              Regarding his lp(a) - lipoprotein a - status:
              This, at least, is good news.
              If you have lipoprotein(a), Lp(a) ....
              Lp(a) is a "cleanly" inherited genetic pattern: If either parent has it, there's a 50% chance that you have it. If you have it, then there's a 50% likelihood that each of your children has it...
              The atherogenicity (plaque-causing potential) of Lp(a) also tends to get transmitted. In other words, if your Dad had a heart attack at age 50 due to Lp(a) and you share Lp(a), then you likely share a similar magnitude of risk as your Dad. If your Mom had Lp(a), though passed quietly at age 89 without any overt evidence of heart disease, then you are likely to share the relatively benign form of Lp(a).

              For most of us with Lp(a), however, it is best to assume that it has at least some potential for causing heart disease, being the most aggressive cause known. (That is, until we have the ability in everyday clinical practice to characterize Lp(a) by assessing such factors as the size of the apoprotein(a) molecule, the number of kringle "repeats" on the tail, etc. Until then, we need to rely on the crude, though helpful, observation of family history.)
              Regarding the rest:

              He really needs to shed the excess weight. For him, it's very important.
              Tweaking his fat/protein/cal ratios might also not be a bad idea.

              To raise HDL powerfully--not to 40 mg/dl for males or 50 mg/dl for females, but to 60, 70 or 80 mg/dl--think about the following strategies:

              --Eliminate wheat and cornstarch products. I have droned on endlessly about this concept, but it is enormously effective. While the weight loss that inevitably follows elimination of these foods adds to the HDL-raising effect, there is also an independent effect, as well.

              --Fish oil--The omega-3 fatty acids in fish oil reduce triglycerides. Triglycerides accelerate the destruction of HDL. Remove triglycerides, HDL goes up. (Though krill oil may share, even surpass this effect, we need more data than the single manufacturer-sponsored study.) Of course, this requires real doses, not the namby-pamby doses you often read about.

              --Vitamin D--Achieving normal levels of 25(OH) vitamin D raises HDL with power I have never witnessed from any other strategy before, barring weight loss of 30+ lbs. Readers of the Heart Scan Blog know that just taking vitamin D is not enough. Verification with blood levels is an absolute necessity, particularly if raising HDL maximally is among your goals.

              --Adding back saturated fat. I say "adding back" since most of us (including myself) went too far down the "saturated fat is bad" path over the past few years. While I do not advocate a carte blanche approach to saturated fat, I believe that adding back eggs (preferably free-range and/or omega-3 rich), lean meats, and hard cheeses is a good idea. The saturated fat in these foods raise HDL 5 or more mg/dl.

              --Dark chocolate--Or other cocoa prepartions. What a cool way to raise HDL! Reach for the lowest-sugar, highest cocoa preparations.

              --Alcoholic beverages--I am partial to the red wine/flavonoid-rich concept, being a wine drinker. Although all alcoholic beverages raise HDL due to the ethanol content, for benefits beyond alcohol (as well as to avoid wheat-based drinks like beer), I do believe that the bulk of data argue for flavonoid-rich red wines from southern France, Italy, and California.

              --Achieve ideal weight--
              Davis on complex familial hyperlipidemias:
              At first, I thought it was attributable to other factors. In real life, most people don't modify one factor at a time.

              They reduce
              processed carbohydrates/eliminate wheat and cornstarch
              lose weight
              add or increase omega-3 fatty acids from fish oil
              begin niacin
              increase exercise and physical activity

              All these efforts also impact on HDL.

              Among the many things I do, I consult on complex lipid (cholesterol) disorders (complex hyperlipidemias) in my office. A substantial number of these people carry a diagnosis of hypoalphalipoproteinemia, a mouthful that simply means these people are unable to manufacture much apoprotein A1, the principal protein of HDL cholesterol particles. As a result, people with hypoalphalipoproteinemia have HDL cholesterol levels in the neighborhood of 20-30 mg/dl--very low. They are also at high risk for heart disease and stroke.

              Encourage these people to exercise, attain ideal weight, eliminate wheat and cornstarch: HDL increases 5 mg/dl or so.

              Add niacin, HDL increases another 5-10 mg/dl.

              Perhaps we're now sitting somewhere around an HDL of 35-40 mg/dl--better, but hardly great.

              Add vitamin D to achieve our target serum level . . . HDL jumps to 50, 60, 70, even 90 mg/dl.

              The first few times this occurred, I thought it was an error or fluke. But now that I've witnessed this effect many dozens of time, I am convinced that it is real. Just today, I saw a 40-year old man whose starting HDL was 25 mg/dl increase to 87 mg/dl.

              Responses like this are supposed to be impossible. Before vitamin D, I had never witnessed increases of this magnitude.
              How much D is he taking? Why the E? What kind of multi? Can you send me links for what he's taking? When are supps being taken?

              Even though he's already taking fish oil, I'd track diet for a few days to assess his Ω3:Ω6 ratio and supplement as needed to bring ratios to 1:1.

              On triglycerides - nothing new but to have it all in one spot:

              wrt Pattern B - modifying small LDL, it doesn't sound like there is anything revolutinary yet. It sounds to me like Davis is saying once you achieve an ideal weight/body fat, exercise, have eliminated grains/sugar, are taking niacin, have optimal D levels that small LDL pretty much just 'is what it is'. At this point, from what he's saying, it doesn't even appear to be of benefit to take statins if this is the only remaining issue....though currently, it's not his only issue
              Contrary to the response, LDL particle size assays are quite reliable and accurate. I've performed many thousands of lipoprotein assays and they yield reproducible and clinically believable results. For example, eliminate wheat, oats, cornstarch, and sugars and small LDL drops from 2400 nmol/L to 893 nmol/L (NMR)--huge drops. If repeated within a short period of time, the second measure will correspond quite closely.

              The data are also quite clear: Small LDL particles (i.e., "pattern B") are a potent predictor of cardiovascular events. What we lack are the treatment trials that show that reduction of small LDL results in reduced cardiovascular events. The reason for this is that small LDL research is not well-funded, since there is no prescription drug to treat small LDL, only nutritional means. Niacin (as Niaspan) is as close as it comes for a "drug" to reduce small LDL. But diet is far more effective.

              Given the questioner's fairly favorable BMI of 25.1 and his history of aggressive heart disease, it is virtually certain that he has what I call "genetic small LDL," i.e., small LDL that occur on a genetically-determined basis (likely due to variants of the cholesteryl-ester transfer protein, or CETP, or of hepatic lipase and others).

              Ignoring this man's small LDL will, without a doubt, consign him to a future of more heart attacks, stents, and bypass. Maybe by that time the data supporting the treatment of small LDL will become available.
              Last edited by cillakat; 10-12-2010, 11:47 AM.

              iherb referral code CIL457- $5 off first order


              • #8
                2nd PDL's recommendations for Niacin, CoQ10, and mag. The Q10 won't affect numbers but is still protective.

                Here is my google bookmark list of magnesium posts - a bunch by pdl, me and more. There is info on the kind of mag I use and magnesium oil. Fwiw, the Jigsaw Health doesn't cause digestive distress like other forms can. Yay!

                I haven't tried mag oil yet but I keep meaning to.
                Last edited by cillakat; 10-12-2010, 11:58 AM.

                iherb referral code CIL457- $5 off first order


                • #9
                  Here is Davis' post on Niacin v. Niacinamide. It matters a great deal for heart health:


                  Jarrow Formulas, QH-absorb, 200 mg, 30 Softgels$34.97

                  When possible, I buy my supps at No one beats them for cost, shipping speed or customer service. Even when vitacost or luckyvitamin looks like they have a lower price, the total is always less at due to an additional 10% off that comes at checkout.


                  iherb referral code CIL457- $5 off first order


                  • #10
                    Wow! THANK YOU, Katherine. I will be reading through all that you posted. Thank you.
                    Favorite Mark Quote: "I train to play."

                    June 2010: 168.6 -size 16
                    Current: 155 - size 10/12
                    Goal:135 - size 8

                    My Journal


                    • #11
                      Thanks, cillakat.

                      I was so hoping you and the others here would be able to add your thoughts. Thank you.

                      Yes, it is my results that Momto3 posted above that are so concerning. I was pretty disappointed when I got them and tried to not let it ruin our camping weekend.

                      Anyway, to add to some of the details here:

                      At my heaviest, I was 188 in June. I am 6'0" and 179-180 and have been stalled there for the past 1.5-2 months, but body fat % is slowly going down. My target weight is 170-175, so it is not far off.

                      We are following Primal Blueprint Fitness as best we can. I am doing 2 days of LHT bodyweight exercises, and was doing SimpleFit before that. Sprinting one day a week for 15 minutes. Usually walk about 40 minutes a day, thought today I decided to try and ride my bike to work instead, getting out on weekends and hiking with the family.

                      We already have a blood glucose monitor. We just need the strips for it, so we will try it out.

                      I have eaten very little grains for the past 4.5 months. Seriously. We were possibly thinking of adding in 1 or 2 servings a week of rice back but maybe that should go on hold for now, at least for me.

                      I haven't logged what I ate for a while now so I should probably do that again. Thanks for the reminder.

                      Once I am home, I can get the information about all the supplements I am taking currently.

                      Thanks again.
                      Last edited by ReadyToGrok; 10-12-2010, 12:50 PM. Reason: Added height
                      My PB Journal
                      Started June 2010


                      • #12
                        So normally what I try and have is:

                        Protein shake in the morning: Can't remember the brand, but it's from Costco - 1.5 scoops, 1/4 cup maybe more of coconut milk, sometimes berries but mostly not, often a tablespoon of coconut oil in there as well.

                        Lunches are salads, carrots, lunch meats (as clean as we can find them) with olive oil and balsamic vinegar dressings. I am trying to have 3 eggs a day as well now. May have to do them in the morning.

                        Dinners are chicken thighs or steak usually with green beans or broccoli.

                        We use butter or coconut oil for cooking.

                        Snacks: I was doing a serving of blueberries or raspberries or strawberries or peaches with heavy cream. Sometimes twice a day: after lunch and after dinner. I was planning on cutting that back to only once a day or every other day if needed.

                        Dark chocolate rarely. Beef jerky and pepperoni sticks for at work.

                        Just added back a handful of nuts. My body doesn't do well with more than that.
                        My PB Journal
                        Started June 2010


                        • #13
                          Thanks for the link about Lp(a). I was suprised his value was 0.0 with all the heart issues on both sides of his family. Mine on the other hand was high at 12. My maternal grandmother died of a heart attack, she also had type 2 diabetes. So I guess I have inherited this. My mom has high cholesterol also...despite eating like a bird (which might be the problem). Maybe I should start on niacin also?

                          Thankfully we have the blood monitor. We got it for me since I am the one with PCOS....never even thought to test ReadyToGrok.

                          Thanks again.
                          Favorite Mark Quote: "I train to play."

                          June 2010: 168.6 -size 16
                          Current: 155 - size 10/12
                          Goal:135 - size 8

                          My Journal


                          • #14
                            My husband's family also have a history of heart disease. His father died in his 50s, a brother in his 40s, a nephew in his 40s and another brother who has had a quadriple bypass. My family all went Primal(ish) in February of this year. Son (22) and I are both quite strict. My younger son (21) is primal except for breakfast - he will insist on cereal. Hubby is not at all enthusiastic and will cheat at every opportunity, for example if we go out for a meal, and he still has one bread roll every day, but all the rest of his meals at home are primal and we don't go out too often.

                            We also take Vitamin D3 (5000iu) a day and CoQ10 (60mg per day) and he has lost 16lbs - down to 215, is 6ft tall and nearly 50. He is also fairly active as he is in the building trade.

                            He is due to go for his cholesterol check soon so we will have to wait and see. Don't know the results of his last one but doctor said that although it was raised he didn't need statins - not like he will be taking them anyway! Has anyone heard of the JSB2 test? His score was 16 and doctor said he didn't need statins until it was 20.

                            I too worry if I am doing the right thing. It is like taking a leap of faith - one person telling you to eat loads of sat and good fat and then another telling you to eat less sat fat and more lean meat.

                            Sons and I feel brilliant eating this way but hubby keeps complaining his legs and knees ache - he never used to.


                            • #15
                              Here is what I am currently taking:

                              Kirkland Signature Omega-3 Fish Oil - 1200 mg - taking 1 per day

                              NatureMade Vitamin D - 1000 IU - taking 3 per day

                              Kirkland Vitamin E - 400 IU - taking 1 per day - taking along with fish oil to prevent oxidization

                              Natures Way Primadophilus Optima - 35 billion CFU - taking 1 per day

                              Kirkland CoQ10 - 300 mg - taking 1 per day

                              One-A-Day Men's Health Formula - taking 1 per day
                              My PB Journal
                              Started June 2010