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  • MEAT!



    Since finding out about this paleo/primal diet, I nixed my avoidance to red meats and pork. It may just be because I'm not used to eating so much meat, but I feel like I'm consuming too much.


    Does the paleo/primal diet reccomend that you eat meat with every meal? Is this too much?


    Most nutritionists stress that meat should be used as a "condiment" rather than a staple in your diet. Why do you think they stress this concern?


    What are the problems with consuming too much meat? (Besides meat toxicity...I eat enough vegetables and fruit to counteract that imbalance.)

    On a mission to help others master movement, build unbreakable strength, & eat MORE food (can't beat that.) Weekly fitness, health & nutrition articles at indulgentfitness.com.

  • #2
    1



    "Meat toxicity"? That's a new one on me. I'm unaware of any problems with consuming large amounts of meat; provided, of course, that's it's good meat.


    CW (conventional wisdom) warns off of meat because meat has fat, and CW holds that fat is bad. I don't find fat to be bad -- in fact, it's my main source of energy. Therefore I see no problem with eating as much meat as I like.


    One problem that can arise from a diet of exclusively lean meat is "rabbit starvation". It's uncommon, but can occur (particularly in times of environmental stress) if there's not enough fat in the diet. Since you're eating vegetables and fruit, this will not be an issue for you; you're getting carbohydrates which are providing your calories.


    For a sense of scale, I had half a pound of beef brisket at lunch yesterday, two-thirds of a pound of ground beef at dinner, and a handful of jerky during the day (somewhere around 500g). For a while recently, my partner was eating approximately 300g of dietary protein each day, almost exclusively from meat -- and that was part of the (medically-directed) process to heal fatty liver disease.

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    • #3
      1

      [quote]

      Does the paleo/primal diet reccomend that you eat meat with every meal?
      </blockquote>


      Who knows? As I understand it the "Paleo Diet" is some modern person&#39;s idea of what Paleolithic people ate ... and bears no resemblance to what any Paleolithic person would actually have eaten. In particular it recommends a low-fat diet, which is diametrically opposite from how actual Paleolithic people ate. see the following articles:


      http://www.westonaprice.org/traditional_diets/caveman_cuisine.html


      and


      http://www.westonaprice.org/traditional_diets/native_americans.html


      As for the "Primal Diet", this seems to be someone&#39;s notion that everything should be eaten raw. See here:


      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aajonus_Vonderplanitz


      I doubt that&#39;s advisable.


      If you&#39;re asking did actual Paleolithic/Primal people eat plenty of meat, the answer is "yes" (although those near the coast exploited seafish as a food source quite extensively). I think Mark&#39;s diet - which I think he calls the "Primal Blueprint" - is based on that knowledge.
      [quote]

      Is this too much?
      </blockquote>


      Whether at every meal is "too much" surely depends on how much you eat at each meal. Certainly healthy people did eat it frequently and probably at most meals. However, I don&#39;t suppose a very large helping at every meal would be good for anyone who wasn&#39;t both large and active. Someone who needs about 2,000 kcal to remain as they are had better not eat 3,500 a day, however they get the calories. Also, consuming excess protein in the absence of enough animal fats is dangerous - because Vitamin A (found in animal fat) is needed to metabolize it, so if you&#39;re eating too much protein and not enough animal fat, you get depleted in vitamin A. This is why primitive people always went for plenty of fat and cuts that have a high fat content.
      [quote]

      Most nutritionists stress that meat should be used as a "condiment" rather than a staple in your diet. Why do you think they stress this concern?
      </blockquote>


      I think something like that form of words is actually a very old saying. I think the Greeks used to speak of "staple" (bread) and "relish" (what you ate with it, whether oil, fish, meat, vegetables). Some Greeks did claim that other greeks ate too little "staple" with too much "relish". Whether they were right is another matter.


      I think modern nutritionists make that claim, because Ancel Keys claimed, incorrectly, that animal fat was the cause of heart disease. Every "study" since that recommends heavy consumption of cereals seems to refer back to Keys&#39; study; so if that&#39;s wrong ...


      In fact, it seems Keys rather faked his figures. Moreover, many scientists never accepted his claims. It seems very likely he was wrong, and heart disease is caused by the consumption of excessive quantities of sugars. A British scientist, John Yudkin, argued for that point of view back in the 70s, but he&#39;s been largely ignored by public health bodies and the media:


      http://www.amazon.com/Pure-White-Deadly-diabetes-completely/dp/0670808199/


      That&#39;s likely to change slowly, since the evidence that Keys was wrong and Yudkin was right is beginning to become overwhelming. See this video by Robert H. Lustig, MD, UCSF Professor of Pediatrics, Division of Endocrinology.


      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBnniua6-oM


      It&#39;s a shame that we&#39;ve all been avoiding eating enough of a healthy, indeed vital, food for thirty years on the back of flawed (and possibly deliberately fraudulent) research.


      I think people just need to eat a varied and balanced diet, taking note of what traditional societies that produced healthy children and adults ate and in what proportions.


      I&#39;d suggest that the range of foods eaten at each meal by various individuals of different age, sex, size, and activity level at the Weston A. Price Foundation is interesting:


      http://www.westonaprice.org/basicnut...oarddiets.html

      Comment


      • #4
        1



        Rabbit starvation! That&#39;s what I was getting at with "meat toxicity"...I just forgot the term they used to describe it.


        You don&#39;t find anything wrong with eating that much meat?


        I just cooked myself up some chicken breast (8% fat) which was much more satisfying and delicious than that lean alternative (2% fat). What a difference! But can you also consume too much fat? If your diet is, say, 65% fat, would you say that is acceptable?

        On a mission to help others master movement, build unbreakable strength, & eat MORE food (can't beat that.) Weekly fitness, health & nutrition articles at indulgentfitness.com.

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        • #5
          1



          Jess, I&#39;ve been feeling healthier and better than ever on 65 - 70% daily calories as fat (not to mention that I&#39;ve lost over 7 lbs this way).


          For me, I love to read scientific research, but lately, all I know is my results and 65% of daily fat is great for me!

          Comment


          • #6
            1



            Sassy and I often butt heads, but we certainly agree on this point! My intakes yesterday were 62% fats, 35% protein, and 5% carbs. (I&#39;m on a weight loss diet.)


            OP, I suggest you go through Mark&#39;s "Definitive Guide" series, accessible from the home page. Many questions put out here on the forum are answered in them.

            Comment


            • #7
              1



              A generally accepted number for the amount of protein you cycle out of your body is 75g/day. Check the nutritional info for the particular meats you&#39;re eating (grams of protein will be much less than the bulk weight of the meat, i.e. 79g for a 1lb/454g ribeye), and see how many grams a day you&#39;re eating. If you&#39;re doing some strength training and other exercise you may want to consume more. I suspect if you work out the numbers you&#39;ll find you&#39;re not consuming much more than 150g/day even if you think you&#39;re eating a lot of protein, which is fine.


              You&#39;d have to eat much, much higher amounts to run into any problems (particularly if you combined it with very little fat or carbs and lack of water -- see &#39;Rabbit Starvation&#39, but it&#39;s certainly worthwhile to analyze so you can afford to eat 120g of really high quality protein rather than 180g of not so awesome supermarket protein.

              Comment


              • #8
                1



                Mick - For starters, you are extremely informative. You are awesome, I appreciate your knowledge.


                I presented the theory that I should be eating fatty meats (or at least I shouldn&#39;t be afraid of them,) to my PT and he suggested that I should opt for the leaner meats since most of my fats should be mono/polyunsaturated from nuts and oils instead, because these were more desirable than "large" quantities of animal fats. ?


                Alright, seriously, what the hell is a BAD fat? (Besides trans fat..doh.)


                The paleo diet doesn&#39;t request that everything you eat is raw. It is very similiar to the primal diet, although it emphasizes leaner-cut meats.


                I&#39;m confused at the Weston A. Price link. What is the point of recording all of their diets? What are the results of these diets? It seems like they eat quite a bit.


                Sassa - Where do you get most of your fat?


                Bayou - Your carb intake is really low. Vegetables usually contribute to the bulk of my carbs, and I can never get it as low as 5%. Although, I&#39;m not really trying to lose weight anyway.


                Nick - My average protein intake is about 120g a day. I&#39;m about 110 pounds. I&#39;m not sure what you mean by supermarket protein.?

                On a mission to help others master movement, build unbreakable strength, & eat MORE food (can't beat that.) Weekly fitness, health & nutrition articles at indulgentfitness.com.

                Comment


                • #9
                  1



                  Bad fat typically means fat with a high ratio of omega-6 to omega-3, as well as containing those fats as a large fraction of the total fat (i.e. coconut oil is 3% poly, and grapeseed oil is 72%..so you have to worry about the ratio for grapeseed oil more than for coconut oil). Polyunsaturated fats help you produce small, oxidized LDL, which is the best predictor of heart disease. ( http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.co...-ldl-part.html )


                  By supermarket protein I mean conventionally raised meats. And by conventionally raised, I of course mean the way it&#39;s been done for the last few decades, not the way it was done for millennia. See here: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/concentrated-animal-feeding-operations/


                  You protein intake sounds fine. If you feel like you&#39;re eating more than you&#39;re hungry for, then sure, cut down (or eat more if you feel like you want more). Otherwise I wouldn&#39;t worry about it.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    1



                    Jess, some of the basic criteria about fat consumption while being Primal are:


                    - Saturate fats are good

                    - Monounsaturated fats are good

                    - Trans fats are poison

                    - Polyunsaturated fatty acids (PUFAs) have to be monitored and are usually problematic.


                    About PUFAs:


                    - They are essential so we need them in out diet

                    - We need to consume them in certain ratios.

                    - 2:1 - 1:4 (omega-6mega-3) seems to be the ideal ratio range.


                    About current vs ideal PUFA consumption:

                    - The standard American diet (SAD) usually has a very high O6:O3 ratio.

                    - Vegetable oils such as canola or cottonseed have a ton of omega 6, and you should NOT consume them.

                    - CAFO meat has an much higher ratio of O-6:0-3 than grass-fed meat (grass is a source of omega-3 for cattle)

                    - The ideal scenario is to consume little omega-6

                    - If high O-6 consumption is unavoidable, it is advised to supplement with O-3 or eat lots of fish to try and level-up the ratios and return to the ideal range.


                    The ideal fish to eat is fatty wild fish. Farmed fish is usually fed crap and therefore their fat is low in O-3. Wild fish eat algae (and therefore O-3) or fish which eat algae. Watch out for fish with mercury or the like.


                    Nut oils are high ion Monounsaturated fats, and some can have a significant amount of O-6.


                    Seeds have a lot of O-6. They should be consumed in moderation.


                    You can get *everything* you need in the right ratios, if you stick to good quality meats, animal fats and veggies.


                    Don&#39;t be afraid to gorge on meat and fat if the sources are right, run away from vegetable oils and processed meat, monitor your omega-6mega-3 and you&#39;ll be more than fine.


                    Embrace the fat.

                    “Every saint has a past and every sinner has a future.” -Oscar Wilde
                    "The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." -George Bernard Shaw
                    "The trouble with jogging is that the ice falls out of your glass." -Martin Mull

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                    • #11
                      1



                      ahh Nick beat me...

                      “Every saint has a past and every sinner has a future.” -Oscar Wilde
                      "The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." -George Bernard Shaw
                      "The trouble with jogging is that the ice falls out of your glass." -Martin Mull

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        1



                        Well, what about olive oil? Isn&#39;t that considered a vegetable oil, yet it&#39;s believed to be "very good" for you? I never cook with butter, only olive oil.


                        I understand that most animals aren&#39;t ideally raised anymore. How can you really tell though? And how bad IS it?


                        I have been embracing the fats! It still feels very strange to me. There has been so much publicity on the concept that fats are bad, so it&#39;s really hard to get out of that mindset, you know?


                        Today I&#39;ve consumed roughly 145g of fat. Yum! I never thought that it would be such a good source of fuel, especially during exercise. I noticed that when I ate more carbs, I used to be ravenous after a workout. Not so much anymore...


                        I&#39;ve also virtually cut out any fruit so my carb intake stays low (under 150g.) How much fruit do you guys consume?

                        On a mission to help others master movement, build unbreakable strength, & eat MORE food (can't beat that.) Weekly fitness, health & nutrition articles at indulgentfitness.com.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          1



                          Extra Virgin Olive Oil should be made up of mostly Monounsaturated fats.


                          Cooking with butter is great, especially if it comes from grass-fed cows/


                          The best way to get grass-fed meat is through farmer markets or places like whole foods. It tends to be expensive though.


                          CAFO meat is bad in the sense that it has much more omega-6 than the natural meat, not to mention the extra hormones, chemicals, etc.


                          I totally understand how hard it is to make the transition to a high fat diet. It&#39;s crazy how we instinctively tend to hang on to things if they have been repeated to us enough times since youth. But trust me, it&#39;s worth it. Not only health-wise, but also because your hunger will stabilize and you&#39;ll feel great.


                          I consume sour fruit (mainly berries) here and there, but not too much really.


                          I am sure that, after a while, you&#39;ll start craving meat and fats, and then you will never want to go back.

                          “Every saint has a past and every sinner has a future.” -Oscar Wilde
                          "The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." -George Bernard Shaw
                          "The trouble with jogging is that the ice falls out of your glass." -Martin Mull

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            1



                            Jess, I eat few carbs because I AM losing weight.... I really do know what I should be eating.


                            Again, a lot of your concerns and questions are answered in Mark&#39;s writings, mostly his "Definitive Guide" series. I can&#39;t find an index to them, but maybe someone smarter than me can point the way.


                            In the meantime, here&#39;s a good place to start: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/defin...l-eating-plan/ That one will also provide links to some of the others.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              1



                              I&#39;ve been eating blackberries and heavy cream a lot lately, also some clementines when they&#39;re in season.


                              Like I said, the percentage of the total fat that is polys is really the defining characteristic of any plant oil, because what polyunsaturated fat is there always tends to be mostly Omega-6 (from 4:1 to 230:1, for olive and cottonseed oil respectively).

                              So we like coconut and palm kernel oil because they&#39;re 3% and 2% poly, and olive oil is only 8% poly, with avocados and their oil clocking in at 10%.

                              Nuts tend to be in the 20% range, so don&#39;t go too nuts on them, since they have a good bit of carbs too.

                              Corn oil, soy oil, peanut oil, grapeseed, etc. are all in the 30-72% range, and since most Americans get around 25% of their calories from vegetable oils nowadays, you can imagine how much Omega-6 they get in excess of what they need (about 0.5% of total calories).


                              The form of Omega-3 in plants is alpha linolenic acid, which is only weakly converted to essential fatty acids DHA and EPA in the body because humans don&#39;t strongly express the right desaturase enzymes to do that (although they are coded for in our DNA) -- a lot of "omega-3 enriched" foods are supplemented with ALA because it is cheap, but it doesn&#39;t provide as much benefit as getting your O3 fats from fish or fish oil or grass fed meats or spirulina.

                              So even though canola oil has a pretty good O6:O3 ratio, I&#39;d stay away from it, because it had to undergo significant engineering to make it produce an oil that didn&#39;t kill people, and it&#39;s still not very good for you compared to other more delicious fats.


                              And certainly if you can get it from naturally raised meats, lard, tallow, bacon grease, schmaltz, duck fat, goose fat, etc. are all excellent for cooking.


                              Eating fat is awesome. I had some bacon and eggs for breakfast at 8am, then around 1:30pm I remembered that I should probably eat..so I took out my leftover beef bourguignon and stuck it in the microwave, and promptly forgot it for an hour doing other things..then finally ate it. And then wasn&#39;t hungry at all for dinner (half a filet of salmon). No cravings, desperate need for snacks, etc.


                              Back in the old days of cereal and skim milk, I&#39;d have been ready to kill someone for food by 10:30am.

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