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How high is too high, Vit D

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  • How high is too high, Vit D

    I just got my latest results and my Vit D (25-H) went from 20.6 (in December '09) to 98.8 July 1st, '10.

    Now, I've been supplementing - anywhere from 2000 IU per day at 1st to a high of 30K IU due to recurrent lung issues/bronchitis bordering on pneumonia, allergies/breathing difficulties, etc that started in the spring. I went down to 6K IU for a week before the blood test due to limited funds and needing to ration out the remaining D3. I'm currently taking 10K per day.

    I've also been in the sun for the 1st time in 25 years. ~ 1 month in the pool, 1-3 hours (after 3pm) per day. No sunscreen.

    Doc said to chill on the supplements - she wants me to ratchet it back to 400-800 units per day. Um, I can't cut these capsules, so minimum is 2000 a day. rofl. I'm not sure if that will be enough to keep the lung issues at bay (but I'm willing to experiment) or if I'm doing some good for those w/ all the sun exposure, too.

    So - is there such a thing as too much of a good thing? Am I doing myself harm having such a high level of D? Should I cut the supplement to the minimum and keep the sun-exposure going? What am I talking about - I'm not stopping the sun-tingle I get now.
    And what do I do if the lung problems come back?

    Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

    Everything else looks FABU, btw - and I credit LC/Primal for it.
    Melissa Fritcher - 330/252/150
    http://lessofmimi.wordpress.com
    Trample the weak, hurdle the dead.

  • #2
    I am also supplementing and once I reach your level I would also like to know how to keep it within healthy limits without having to test continously (although that's probably unavoidable). Hopefully Cillakat will jump in with some advice.
    “Every saint has a past and every sinner has a future.” -Oscar Wilde
    "The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." -George Bernard Shaw
    "The trouble with jogging is that the ice falls out of your glass." -Martin Mull

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    • #3
      Too much will result in a too high blood calcium level. I would look on the Vitamin D Council web site for guidance on how to figure it out. But, I think I remember Cannell (Vit D Council doc) saying he wanted his patients up to 100, but not above. If I were you, I would drop down to one 2000 iu cap per day until you get that figured out.

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      • #4
        The vitamin D council guys seems to settle on 50-80 as a good level. Though without symptoms of hypercalcemia (bone pain, kidney stones, insomnia, fatigue, depression, hair thinning) and nl serum calcium, 98 is probably fine. As long as you don't have hyperparathyroidism, and you have adequate calcium (though less need for RDA-type amounts with adequate D), A, and K2, D is fine. I think a certain percentage of folks will get toxic on 10,000 IU daily. And probably no need to supplement on days you hang out in the sun. I'm deficient as of early April level (31), will recheck in a few months after 4000-6000 IU a day (none on sun days, though), will try to maintain on 2000-5000 a day one the level is good.

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        • #5
          Experiment! tell us what happens! lol. 30k is insane!!
          "I know what my body needs and what it can handle. There's no better way to achieve my goal than what im doing now. If my regimen leads to my death, be it in six days or six months...I will die fullfiled. The outcome is irrelavent so long as i steer towards my fate. If death is to be my prize, i welcome it with open arms."

          "A pound of meat a day keeps the doctor away"

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          • #6
            Originally posted by TheGrappler View Post
            Experiment! tell us what happens! lol. 30k is insane!!
            LOL - the capsules are very small, thank goodness. I was taking 10K three times a day at that point. (I take a lot of supplements per day, no meds anymore, thank goodness. Just vitamins, and happy pills)

            Yes, I do recall seeing something about our bodies uptaking more calcium when adequate levels of D are achieved, and I did cut out my Cal supplement a couple of weeks ago.

            I'm sure the sun would be adequate on the days I do go out, but I take the supplements as much for the lung issues as anything. I do suppose I could cut back to one a day and then bolus if I can't breathe. lol

            Should I request blood calcium testing due to the upper-level-normal D?
            Melissa Fritcher - 330/252/150
            http://lessofmimi.wordpress.com
            Trample the weak, hurdle the dead.

            Comment


            • #7
              I think you will be just fine on one 2000 unit capsule a day plus sun exposure as a maintenance dose now that you are at the very high range of normal. In the dead of winter you might want to go up to 4000 units/day for maintenance.

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              • #8
                Quick go see if you have sunlight coming out of your ears. Post pictures if so.
                Stabbing conventional wisdom in its face.

                Anyone who wants to talk nutrition should PM me!

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Stabby View Post
                  Quick go see if you have sunlight coming out of your ears. Post pictures if so.
                  ROFLMAO!!! I do think I glow now, but I like to think it's just from better health. ROFL
                  Melissa Fritcher - 330/252/150
                  http://lessofmimi.wordpress.com
                  Trample the weak, hurdle the dead.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by LessofMimi View Post
                    - is there such a thing as too much of a good thing?
                    Absolutely.

                    Am I doing myself harm having such a high level of D? Should I cut the supplement to the minimum and keep the sun-exposure going? What am I talking about - I'm not stopping the sun-tingle I get now.
                    I'm swamped, friends, absolutely swamped so it'll have to be brief and without references.

                    It appears that 50-80 ng/ml (per labcorp or ZRT) is idea. If Quest did your test, results tend to be both inaccurate and imprecise....and not scaled to the gold standard DiaSorin process which is used in virtually all of the D studies. If Quest did your test, the best advice so far (from Cannell) is to divide the result by 1.3.

                    The following is from the D doc that's linked in my sig line:

                    ❍ 32 ng/mL (80 nmol/L) is the bottom of the current reference range in the US.
                    This level leaves us in a state of substrate starvation which isn't good.
                    And if
                    Quest** did your test - see note above - you need to divide by 1.3.

                    40 ng/mL (100 nmol/L) the minimum recommended by currently by
                    any major D researcher (see
                    grassrootshealth.net).

                    50 ng/mL (125 nmol/L) is the point at which we have sufficient substrate
                    for managing calcium levels and have additional to use for other necessary
                    physiological functions - including gene expression (300+ other functions in our bodies)


                    60-70 ng/mL (150-175 nmol/L) is the 'middle of the current reference range
                    for the major US labs. European and canadian labs are behind the times on this
                    one and are still generally using a much lower range that accepts truly
                    deficient levels as normal.


                    80 ng/mL (200 nmol/L) is the higher end of normal but still within the physiological
                    range of what we could achieve from significant midday sun exposure.

                    100 ng/mL (250 nmol/L) a level still obtainable by extensive sun exposure -
                    think lifeguards in South Florida. That this value can be achieved only through
                    sun exposure implies that this is still a physiologically appropriate level. Having
                    said that, even with extreme sun exposure, it's almost impossible to get to 100ng/mL
                    so it *might* be too high. Personally I'd stay around 60-70 ng/mL.

                    200 ng/mL (500 nmol/L) is the lowest blood level of 25(OH)D at which there
                    has been documented D toxicity. There has never been a case reported at levels
                    lower than that. (but it doesn't mean that it's safe or good to exceed 80-100 ng/mL
                    except in a few rare cases)



                    And what do I do if the lung problems come back?
                    Don't drop down to 400-800 IU per day.
                    Don't get significant midday, full body sun, to the point just before a burn would occur *AND* take vitamin D. Do one or the other. Or do a portion of one and a portion of the other.

                    I do get midday, bikini, summer sun to the point just before a burn would occur about twice a week (which is about 35 min each side for my fitzpatrick phototype III skin)....of course, longer exposure times are needed as one tans. Anyhoo, on the days I get that sun, I don't take D. On the days I do take my full dose, I cover meticulously (mostly because I don't want the sun damage).

                    If I didn't cover meticulously, I'd take a partial dose, guestimating as well as I could.

                    So tell me more about your test....lab? units?
                    Last edited by cillakat; 07-14-2010, 10:58 AM. Reason: additional info



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                    • #11
                      1,000 IU (25 mcg) per 25 lbs body weight per day is a very reasonable dose of
                      D3 for someone who
                      avoid sun by
                      → working indoors midday
                      wearing clothes midday
                      avoiding sun midday (too hot etc)
                      wearing any amount of sunscreen midday


                      ☑ 10,000 IU-50,000 IU vitamin D3 is produced in the skin upon full body exposure
                      to sunlight......with the average of the studies being about 20,000 IU.
                      However,
                      adults should not take more than 5000 IU per day without testing.
                      10,000 IU produced in skin 10,000 IU oral dosing.

                      Children and Vitamin D - 1000 IU per 25lbs body weight per day (400 IU per 10
                      lbs body weight per day) is the appropriate recommended dose for children.


                      http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19102134
                      Ann Otol Rhinol Laryngol. 2008 Nov;117(11):864-70.Cod liver oil, vitamin A toxicity, frequent respiratory infections, and the vitamin D deficiency epidemic.Cannell JJ, Vieth R, Willett W, Zasloff M, Hathcock JN, White JH, Tanumihardjo SA, Larson-Meyer DE, Bischoff-Ferrari HA, Lamberg-Allardt CJ, Lappe JM, Norman AW, Zittermann A, Whiting SJ, Grant WB, Hollis BW, Giovannucci E.
                      Until we have better information on doses of vitamin D that will reliably provide adequate blood levels of 25(OH)D without toxicity, treatment of vitamin D deficiency in otherwise healthy children should be individualized according to the numerous factors that affect 25(OH)D levels, such as body weight, percent body fat, skin melanin, latitude, season of the year, and sun exposure. The doses of sunshine or oral vitamin D3 used in healthy children should be designed to maintain 25(OH)D levels above 50 ng/mL. As a rule, in the absence of significant sun exposure, we believe that most healthy children need about 1,000 IU of vitamin D3 daily per 11 kg (25 lb) of body weight to obtain levels greater than 50 ng/mL. Some will need more, and others less. In our opinion, children with chronic illnesses such as autism, diabetes, and/or frequent infections should be supplemented with higher doses of sunshine or vitamin D3, doses adequate to maintain their 25(OH)D levels in the mid-normal of the reference range (65 ng/mL) — and should be so supplemented year-round .

                      Don't be afraid to take as much D3 as is required to raise your serum 25(OH)D to
                      50-80 ng/mL (125 nmol/L to 250 nmol/L) There is a 25-50%
                      variation in serum
                      vitamin d levels at 'x' amount of supplementation rate due to genetic variations
                      in vitamin d binding protein.
                      http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19302999

                      Clin Biochem. 2009 Jul;42(10-11):1174-7. Epub 2009 Mar 18.Common genetic variants of the
                      vitamin D binding
                      protein (DBP) predict differences in response of serum 25-hydroxyvitamin
                      D [25(OH)D] to vitamin D supplementation.
                      Fu L, Yun F, Oczak M, Wong BY, Vieth R, Cole DE.
                      Department of Laboratory Medicine and Pathobiology, University
                      of Toronto, Toronto, ON, Canada M5G 1L5.

                      Early AM and later afternoon sun exposure on face, hands and arms is not sufficient
                      to raise vitamin D levels or maintain optimal vitamin D levels.


                      Fall, Winter and Spring sun exposure is not generally sufficient to raise viamin D levels
                      or to maintain optimal D levels.


                      A person (tan or not) who's been getting
                      midday
                      unprotected
                      summer exposure
                      on most body skin

                      to the point just before a burn occurs, may have optimal D levels during the summer.


                      The Vitamin D Council (vitamindcouncil.org) has all of the D research, reference cites
                      and links to peer reviewed journal articles that you'd ever want to read, plus several thousand extra


                      Grassrootshealth.org has a tremendous amount of good information as well.

                      Stanford and other major D research centers have podcasts in iTunes that are excellent resources.



                      iherb referral code CIL457- $5 off first order

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by TheGrappler View Post
                        Experiment! tell us what happens! lol. 30k is insane!!
                        Dosing at that level is only acceptable when there is a known deficiency and for a short time period (4-6 w) to bring levels to wnl (probably 50-80 ng/mL or 125-200 nmol/L).



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                        • #13
                          Here is some helpful information on Fitzpatrick phototyping:
                          http://dermnetnz.org/reactions/phototype.html



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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by SerialSinner View Post
                            without having to test continously (although that's probably unavoidable).
                            After testing a couple of times a year for a couple of years, you'll have a sense of what's needed from supplements at various time during the year and what can be obtained from the sun.

                            I have 3 or four tests behind me now showing a level of 64 or 65 ng/mL - and that's from two differet labs at 3 or 4 different points of the year. Most just with supplements and meticulous sun avoidance but more recently with significant sun exposure on some days (and no supplement) and supplement only some days (with meticulous avoidance) and a mix on other days.

                            Maintaining steady levels throughout the year is seems to be a worthwhile goal as falling levels appear to be rather dangerous for the body.



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