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  • The insulin primer

    http://weightology.net/weightologyweekly/?page_id=319

    Raad up my friends.
    "I know what my body needs and what it can handle. There's no better way to achieve my goal than what im doing now. If my regimen leads to my death, be it in six days or six months...I will die fullfiled. The outcome is irrelavent so long as i steer towards my fate. If death is to be my prize, i welcome it with open arms."

    "A pound of meat a day keeps the doctor away"

  • #2
    In fact, if you truly wanted to keep insulin as low as possible, then you wouldn’t eat a high protein diet…you would eat a low protein, low carbohydrate, high fat diet. However, I don’t see anybody recommending that.


    I wouldn't exactly call this a primer, it dispels some myths but as a primer and is about as inadequate as the "all carbs are bad all of the time" crowd. I knew all of that, obviously, and I agree that most of it is accurate. However I think that there should be more discussion on the effects of high-glycemic carbohydrates like grains in the context of insulin resistance, which is essentially all of his clients. Also I would have liked to see a discussion of how people get insulin resistant in the first place and how to reverse it. When most people like Gary Taubes say that "insulin is bad" they mean chronically elevated insulin, which as Taubes illustrated, is caused in part by sugar and flour, not necessarily fruit, and carby vegetables. X 5 if in the context of chicken gobbling peanut butter loving nutrient deficient North Americans, though that's not the carb's fault. In the context of insulin resistance, something like bread or pasta (even whole grains) will cause secretion of insulin disproportionate to energy in, causing increased de novo lipogenesis which then causes leptin resistance, which is the main reason why people lose a lot of weight effortlessly in the first little while doing the low carb, high fat thing. What we have here are a bunch of nebulous, isolated concepts floating around without context and I don't think that this article has shed any more light on the subject. I want to see what he writes for his "highly individualized approach" article. Some people can handle some more carbs, and some people can't, and for the ones who can't (Griff, for example. I wonder if this guy would advise him to get off the grains) I can hardly see a point to shooting themselves in the foot by continuing to eat grains and starchy tubers, even fruits, at least for a time until insulin receptors work properly again and carbs can be re-introduced to tolerance.

    That is my take.
    Last edited by Stabby; 07-10-2010, 09:51 PM.
    Stabbing conventional wisdom in its face.

    Anyone who wants to talk nutrition should PM me!

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    • #3
      Not about the link above but the comment, See Dr. Bernstein's diabetic diet work. He advocates low carb, limited protein, the residual has to be fats (cellulose and water). Has a lot of success, particularly with Type I diabetics.

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      • #4
        And Mr. Kreiger himself came here to discuss earlier in the week.

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        • #5
          Pretty basic stuff. I keep protein a constant and I shuffle my carb/fat intake depending on my lifestyle going forward. People will adhere to different percentages of carbs and fat and of course that is the difference between success and failure for them. There is no absolute best way.
          Whether you think you can..... or you think you can't..... your 100 % correct.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Stabby View Post


            cause secretion of insulin disproportionate to energy in, That is my take.

            that quote is money. i have forever been looking for those words
            Get on my Level
            http://malpaz.wordpress.com/

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Stabby View Post
              In the context of insulin resistance, something like bread or pasta (even whole grains) will cause secretion of insulin disproportionate to energy in, causing increased de novo lipogenesis which then causes leptin resistance,
              Stabby, I don't want to spend a bunch of my time debating on forums on these topics, but there are problems with your statement here. Yes, carbohydrate will cause a disproportionate increase in insulin when someone is insulin resistant, but so will protein. Did you not see the chart of the obese people's insulin response to a high protein meal, and how much more dramatic it was compared to the lean people?

              Hyperinsulinemia is a compensatory mechanism for insulin resistance. You will get disproportionately high insulin spikes when insulin resistant, whether you consume carbohydrate or protein. However, we know that high protein diets are effective at improving blood glucose regulation and improving insulin resistance, despite the fact that high protein meals produce insulin "spikes" just like carbohydrate. In fact, a combination of protein and carbohydrate will have a synergistic effect, causing a greater insulin response than either maconutrient alone, and this has been demonstrated in a number of studies. That was the whole point of the article...that insulin is not a hormone to be feared. It is one of the reasons why protein suppresses appetite and helps improve blood glucose regulation. People have this misconception that it's "all about controlling insulin." This is simply not true; it is a case of controlling blood glucose, NEFA's, and improving satiety. I actually will be writing a follow up article on insulin, just to show more data demonstrating how "controlling insulin" is not correct concept when it comes to treating insulin resistance.

              Your statement regarding de novo lipogenesis and leptin resistance aren't quite correct either, but as I said, I'm not interested in engaging in a bunch of debate here as maintaining my own site takes enough of my time. I'm looking to write articles in the future on all of these topics.

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              • #8
                Okay, that's cool. I will double-check those statements about de novo lipogenesis and leptin resistance and check out some more info, there is plenty of contradictory stuff out there.

                One clarification is that I am not an advocate of high protein for weight loss either, as it indeed has similar effects to carbs. If you're interested there are a couple of guys who do advocate super high fat for weight loss, which can seem like twilight zone stuff but there is good reason to it. I'm not saying that it's the only way, but it is what I have reasoned to be most fitting for the larger folks who will be insulin resistant by the virtue of being corpulent (and usually other factors) http://journals.cambridge.org/action...=03&aid=804796


                Stabbing conventional wisdom in its face.

                Anyone who wants to talk nutrition should PM me!

                Comment


                • #9
                  what about the pancreatic beta cells? I thought that too high a carb intake burns out the pancreas leading to type 2 diabetes. Is this correct?

                  I think I'm going to have to read this article again, I didn't absorb all of it. I need some very short simple primers for my aging brain.
                  If we’re not supposed to eat animals, how come they’re made out of meat? Tom Snyder

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                  • #10
                    It's true that simply eating a lot of carbs isn't necessarily going to burn out beta cells (which turns type 2 into a conditional type 1 diabetes) in itself. It is chronically elevated insulin for many years that does it, and simply eating carbs isn't necessarily going to do it if everything else is in order. Case in point, the Kitava study where they get 70% of their calories from carbs and have relatively high caloric intake but are very healthy metabolically. We want to have as low fasting insulin as we can realistically muster, that's what is disease-causing.

                    I think that when guys like Mark and Gary Taubes say that all high carb intake burns out the pancreas that mean stuff like sugar and flour which cause insulin resistance in themselves (flour for reasons other than the carb content, sugar because of the fructose). And also that in the context of the usual metabolically harmful western diet, the carbs exacerbate many issues. I agree with Mark that everyone should reduce carbs greatly at first to find out their optimal intake. Many people first getting into health are going to be relatively intolerant to them. Protein too.

                    Whether or not that many "good" carbs like with the Kitavans is good for someone wishing to be optimally healthy all of their life is another issue. But carb quality is important and other factors affect glucose tolerance, and good carbs like yams and vegetables aren't necessarily disease-causing like we find with the highly refined ones and junk grains.
                    Stabbing conventional wisdom in its face.

                    Anyone who wants to talk nutrition should PM me!

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I for one learned a lot of good stuff there.

                      But I am not convinced that the problem with refined carbs is their "energy density." After all, fats are FAR more calorically-dense than any refined carb. And you don't see many pics of overweight Maasai or Tokelauans. The issue with refined carbs to me is still their negligible effect on satiation (perhaps an issue with leptin) and tendency to chronically elevate insulin levels (particularly fructose).
                      Lean, Mean, Virile Machine
                      The Modern Man's Guide to Health, Fitness, and Wellness

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                      • #12
                        I think the problem sometimes is looking at the extremes.....both insulin and fructose (liver glycogen) are appetite suppressors, but too much is a totally different issue. Excess calories are the problem....even insulin resistant obese individuals will show improvement in all metabolic risk factors when they consume a hypocaloric diet, without changing their macronutrient ratio's. Of course changing their ratio's will enhance that improvement, but that wasn't my point per se.
                        Whether you think you can..... or you think you can't..... your 100 % correct.

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                        • #13
                          Darrin........if you take a look at the caloric density of cakes, pastries, chips, cookies you'll find most of these are also very high in fat. Fat as a macronutrient is not as satiating as protein or many carbohydrates....it's actually the least satiating.......it's lot of calories in a very small package. 2 ounces of olive oil which I could tip pack in about 2 seconds and not feel full is 500 calories and when you compare that with 12 ounces of flank steak or 10 cups of broccoli I think you would agree would be more filling. Protein and unrefined carbohydrates will have the highest thermic effect, not protein and fat when calories are equal.
                          Last edited by Chefgerry; 07-11-2010, 05:16 AM.
                          Whether you think you can..... or you think you can't..... your 100 % correct.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Chefgerry View Post
                            2 ounces of olive oil which I could tip pack in about 2 seconds and not feel full is 500 calories and when you compare that with 12 ounces of flank steak or 10 cups of broccoli I think you would agree would be more filling. Protein and unrefined carbohydrates will have the highest thermic effect, not protein and fat when calories are equal.
                            of course 2 oz of olive oil wont be satisfying. its a plant-based fat, and there is a difference between feeling physically full immediatly after a meal and long-term satiety caused by high leptin levels due to higher animal fat consumption over a longer period of time. I can eat a few ounces of beef fat and not feel stuffed, but the next day I have a very very tame appetite. Increased fat consumption definetly increases satiety over the long term.

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                            • #15
                              Higher fat increases leptin, not just animal fat. Insulin increases leptin for that matter and protein increases insulin. Plant fat like palm or coconut oil has more saturated fat (double) if your trying to suggest certain isomers of fat are more satiating, or increase leptin to a degree where it's significantly better. To me it looks like animal protein is the macro that help me stay full longer, not fat on a calorie for calorie basis, but hey a study of one (me) is not conclusive proof. Fat helps to slow digestion in conjunction with other foods like protein but on it's own does nothing for me, but like I mentioned above, everyone's body react differently to food depending on what overall state a persons body is in to begin with.
                              Last edited by Chefgerry; 07-11-2010, 07:46 AM.
                              Whether you think you can..... or you think you can't..... your 100 % correct.

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