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To Dairy, or not to Dairy, that is the question.. :)

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  • #31
    We use grassfed butter (Kerrigold), organic grassfed cream and cheese fairly regularly but in small amounts. Neither of us has any ill effects as long as we keep our consumption moderate. If I drink milk it does make my face breakout and aggrevates DH's ibs so we avoid that.

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    • #32
      Seems I'll just use butter and cheese. Won't drink milk unless I can get it raw. Whats the best cheese I can get that has the least amount of sugar but is whole?

      And butter and cheese doesn't spike insulin? Looks like most cheese is low in Carb besides a select few.

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      • #33
        Originally posted by lmyers04 View Post
        we are mammals that drink milk in the early stages of life
        Human milk, not cow's milk.
        Originally posted by lmyers04 View Post
        I do not believe that dairy is the sole cause of inflammation.
        Surely not, but it could be one of them.
        Height: 5'4" (1.62 m)
        Starting weight (09/2009): 200 lb (90.6 kg)
        No longer overweight (08/2010): 145 lb (65.6 kg)
        Current weight (01/2012): 127 lb (57.5 kg)

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Mirrorball View Post
          Human milk, not cow's milk.
          should we eat human meat then? I dont know what the hangup is about consumming a cows milk! All of the food we consume is from animals and plants, not humans, and yet people still balk at cows milk, saying that it is only human milk we can be nourished from? i just dont get it......

          and i dont think its inflammation promoting if your adapted to it, tolerant. thats the definition of adaptation.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by lmyers04 View Post
            should we eat human meat then?
            We are evolutionarily adapted to eating meat from other animals, but not their milk. It's all about what we have evolved to tolerate.
            Height: 5'4" (1.62 m)
            Starting weight (09/2009): 200 lb (90.6 kg)
            No longer overweight (08/2010): 145 lb (65.6 kg)
            Current weight (01/2012): 127 lb (57.5 kg)

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            • #36
              Casein is the protein found in cow's milk and it has been linked to all types of cancer. Scientists found that it was possible to turn cancer growth on and off like a light switch with casein consumption.

              However; I don't know if this is the case because of the pasteurization of milk and the corn fed to modern day cows. If cows are grass fed instead of corn fed do they produce a different milk? Cow dung from grass fed cows is anti-septic whereas cow dung from corn fed cows is toxic...

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              • #37
                Dairy is awesome stuff if you tolerate it. My real induction into paleo eating comes from Dr. Kurt Harris at Panu. Shame his current hiatus is so long. Here is one of his better discussions about dairy (and paleo reenactment nonsense). I love the honey vs butter challenge, but here's his summation:
                Finally, anyone who reads here regularly knows my take on dairy in the PaNu scheme.

                If you are lactose intolerant, avoid the dairy with lactose.

                If you are allergic to milk protein, stick to clarified butter.

                If you want to cover the theoretical possibility of immune issues, even after wheat and excess linoleic acid are removed from your diet, then by all means eliminate all dairy and supplement with K2

                Until I see evidence that all dairy is dangerous for all people, I refuse to treat it like wheat or fructose.

                I refuse to make a blanket warning against a class of foods that are cheap, delicious, available and have huge health benefits for most (if not all) people. I have had huge success with my approach, and much of it hinges on weaning people off wheat and sugar. I would have had many more failures than successes if I threw out the the dairy baby with the neolithic agent bathwater.

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                • #38
                  My beef with Dr Harris and dairy is that he has cleared dairy on the grounds that there isn't enough evidence against it. At the same time, it's been shown that the Kitavans eat a lot of tubers and are healthy, and there isn't any evidence against tubers, but the Kitavans "bore" him, because his theory asserts that tubers aren't optimal. So it's okay to eat dairy even though theoretically it's not good, but it's not okay to eat tubers because theoretically it's not good. At least people who reject dairy on the grounds that it's not paleo are consistent.
                  Height: 5'4" (1.62 m)
                  Starting weight (09/2009): 200 lb (90.6 kg)
                  No longer overweight (08/2010): 145 lb (65.6 kg)
                  Current weight (01/2012): 127 lb (57.5 kg)

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    I am also losing weight rapidly consuming dairy. I mostly stick to cultured butter and cream. I mostly avoid milk. I don't hesitate to eat cheese when it's called for and it gets called for every couple of days. I make my own yogurt, creme fraiche, cultured butter, ghee and mascarpone. It's all good. I have 32 ounces of half and half being turned into even fattier Fage Total than the real McCoy.

                    There's been a bunch of conflicting studies about dairy and weight loss, and the results are open to interpretation, but the claim that dairy causes gains or stagnation is no more accurate than the claim that it causes weight loss. From my reading, I think it can be a huge benefit to weight loss for ketogenic fat fueled dieters, and an important food for obese diabetics.

                    From the research:

                    RESULTS: In the first trial, body weight remained stable for both groups throughout the maintenance study. The high dairy diet resulted in decreases in total body fat (2.16 kg, p < 0.01), trunk fat (1.03 kg, p < 0.01), insulin (18.7 pM, p < 0.04), and blood pressure (6.8 mm Hg systolic, p < 0.01; 4.25 mm Hg diastolic, p < 0.01) and an increase in lean mass (1.08 kg, p < 0.04), whereas there were no significant changes in the low dairy group. In the second trial, although both diets produced significant weight and fat loss, weight and fat loss on the high dairy diet were approximately 2-fold higher (p < 0.01), and loss of lean body mass was markedly reduced (p < 0.001) compared with the low dairy diet.
                    In conclusion, there is still good evidence for a role of dietary calcium intake in human body-weight regulation, but future studies should concentrate on how calcium-deficient states during weight loss can amplify hunger and impair compliance with a diet aiming at weight control or loss. Furthermore, we still need a better mechanistic approach to elucidate both the way or ways in which dairy calcium increases fecal fat excretion and its quantitative importance for weight control.
                    CONCLUSIONS—A diet rich in dairy calcium intake enhances weight reduction in type 2 diabetic patients. Such a diet could be tried in diabetic patients, especially those with difficulty adhering to other weight reduction diets.

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Mirrorball View Post
                      My beef with Dr Harris and dairy is that he has cleared dairy on the grounds that there isn't enough evidence against it. At the same time, it's been shown that the Kitavans eat a lot of tubers and are healthy, and there isn't any evidence against tubers, but the Kitavans "bore" him, because his theory asserts that tubers aren't optimal. So it's okay to eat dairy even though theoretically it's not good, but it's not okay to eat tubers because theoretically it's not good. At least people who reject dairy on the grounds that it's not paleo are consistent.
                      That's valid. Eat your dairy and enjoy your tubers. Sour cream and butter on a baked potato is good for the soul.

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                      • #41
                        I'd agree with Mirrorball. We are not baby cows. We are not even baby humans, we are adults. Ability of humans to digest lactose via lactase deteriorates in most humans as they age, since adult humans are not in the long term evolved to consume dairy.

                        Dairy, like wheat, contains opioid peptides. In other words, opium. Gives new meaning to the word "comfort food."

                        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opioid_peptide

                        No wonder folks crave it and find it hard to give up. Mother nature puts opioid peptides in dairy so that baby cows will follow mommy cows around closely and drink lots of lots of milk and grow big.

                        Milk is not just designed to feed baby cows, but to grow them big as fast as possible. There is some indication that it might do the same thing with humans, i.e. grow them bigger even when they are adults. It may also grow tumors big, as dairy consumption correlates highly with prostate cancer in men.

                        http://thepaleodiet.blogspot.com/201...y-protein.html

                        Dairy contains lectins, which are the noxious and inflammatory compounds also found in wheat and legumes.

                        A substantial proportion of US dairy cows are infected with paratuberculosis bacteria (MAP bacteria) and those bacteria are resistant to being killed by pasteurization at the temperature level common in US dairy processing. A large proportion of US cows are infected by bovine leukemia virus. The jury is out on whether this cancer-connected virus might tie in with human cancers.

                        Milk in dairy processing is treated like crude oil, the milk of hundreds or even thousands of cows being conveyed through pipes and mixed together so that if even one cow is infected, the pathogens from that one cow could affect all the milk in the huge batch.

                        Milk was not a part of human diet from an evolutionary standpoint until late in human evolution and adult humans are not well adapted to live on it.

                        Dairy frequently exacerbates autoimmune conditions and may even be involved in the pathogenesis of them. It is known to be implicated in causing Type I Diabetes in infancy.

                        The nutritional value of milk is overrated. Diminished lactase levels make digestion difficult for adults and all but impossible for many ethnic groups. There is calcium, but statistics show that the countries where milk is consumed most are the ones with the most osteoporosis and lowest bone density. Vitamin D is added to milk, but can better be obtained elsewhere. Milk lacks magnesium and other minerals necessary for proper utilization of the calcium it contains.

                        Dairy tends to tip the acid/alkaline balance toward unhealthy acid concentrations. Even though it is not especially productive of glycemic responses, it produces hyperinsulinemia and its effect in that regard is similar to high carbohydrate loads and can play a part in unhealthy insulin resistance.

                        http://thepaleodiet.com/articles/Milk%20Final.pdf


                        The work of Dr. Loren Cordain and others implicates dairy in acne.

                        This being said, milk is a major source of protein and food value in the world today, and there is probably not enough non-dairy and non-grain food to feed even a fraction of the world's population. So I'll urge everyone else to drink lots and lots of milk and eat lots of grains and leave all the grassfed beef and coldwater fish for me! Bon Appetit!
                        Last edited by Paleo Man; 07-08-2010, 10:25 PM.

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                        • #42
                          Spinach has opiate peptides. I think that's a selling point in a food. Milk is a natural sleep aid. A little yogurt can whip insomnia better than melatonin.

                          Eggs contain lectins. Shall we stop eating them too? What about tomatoes, peppers and eggplant? Mark darn near lost me with his pieces on lectins. And tubers, they too are rich in lectins. Bananas and plantains have lectins. Plums, mango, guava and most fruit including berries, and most nuts. Onions, garlic, cabbage, celery, most herbs, cucumber and all squash. Yep better start eliminating all these. By the time Cordain and Mercola retire they're going to be insisting distilled water is the only healthy thing to consume.

                          That take on bone density is right out of the vegan handbook and the China Study. I'm not surprised Cordain followers go there, but it seems a shame.

                          Some research to consider:
                          Of 52 investigator-controlled calcium intervention studies, all but two showed better bone balance at high intakes, or greater bone gain during growth, or reduced bone loss in the elderly, or reduced fracture risk. This evidence firmly establishes that high calcium intakes promote bone health. Additionally, three-fourths of 86 observational studies were also positive, indicating that the causal link established in investigator-controlled trials can be found in free-living subjects as well. The principal reason for failure to find an association in observational studies is the weakness of the methods available for estimating long-term calcium intake. While most of the investigator-controlled studies used calcium supplements, six used dairy sources of calcium; all were positive. Most of the observational studies were based on dairy calcium also, since at the time the studies were done, higher calcium intakes meant higher dairy intakes. All studies evaluating the issue reported substantial augmentation of the osteoprotective effect of estrogen by high calcium intakes.
                          It's cheap, delicious, natural, and healthy. I feel sorry for those who are intolerant and worse for those who get conned into eliminating it. But hey, more for me? Nah, there's plenty for everyone. And it prevents bone loss.

                          Harris on Cordain:
                          If I have a problem with Cordain's methodology, it's that he seems to decide that something should be bad, then marshalls everything he can find to prove it so. This is just what he did with saturated fat, with all those theoretical calculations based on wild game assays to prove that paleo man could not have eaten very much of it.

                          His "paleolithic principle" differs from mine in that he seems to start with "not available in the paleo period = bad" and then looks for harder science to support it. My method looks first at medical evidence and metabolism, then looks for which (not necessarily all) neolithic agents are likely to account for the diseases of civilization.
                          Cordain has missed the boat before (saturated fats), and I'm pretty sure he's missing it again.

                          Originally posted by lmyers04 View Post
                          do not fear the moo! butter, cream, cheese. are you living life? without these things, I should say not....
                          Amen. A life without dairy would be a life with less joy, probably shorter, weaker and more diseased too.

                          Survival data were recorded yearly until 2001, and then tested with Kaplan-Meier analysis and the log rank statistic. Four dietary patterns were identified: a pattern preferring vegetables (n = 33), a pattern preferring dairy products (n = 26), a pattern preferring beverages (n = 10), and a pattern preferring cereals (n = 35). No clinical variables differed between the four dietary patterns. In 2001, 28 centenarians were still alive. The survival rate for those preferring dairy products was the highest of the four dietary patterns; in particular, being significantly higher than the pattern preferring beverages (p = 0.048). A dietary pattern preferring dairy products was associated with increased survival in Tokyo-area centenarians.
                          Yeah, that said centenarians. The same thing can be found in France. Cordain and Mercola can be menaces with the food scares. Bah. Eat dairy and outlive your fellow centenarians!

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                          • #43
                            Wow, a lot of response and so much to read. I am surprised about the findings of dairy.

                            Now if I can just get raw milk!!!

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                            • #44
                              I'd noticed that elsewhere on this site, cillakat posted on her recent labs and felt that C-Reactive Protein (CRP, a measure of inflammation) had been previously high on dairy, was down to something like 0.5 when she was off dairy, and went back up to something approaching around 5 when she was back on dairy. Might be a coincidence, but . . .

                              CRP of 1 or less is low risk for cardiovascular disease, if I recall correctly, but over 3.0 is high risk. I've got labs for one gentleman whose CRP was 6.0, but on cutting out 100% of wheat and dairy, his CRP was down to 0.2 within a month. When last checked, my CRP off wheat and off dairy for five years, was 0.1 and sed rate (ESR) was 1. Has anyone else tracked their CRP on and off dairy (and/or wheat)?

                              On the issue of saturated fat. I've read Cordain's papers and position. I've read the opinions of Kurt G. Harris MD at PaNu.com and others promoting saturated fat consumption. I'm not sure that Cordain doesn't have the better argument. I don't really know. What I do wonder about is this. If I put myself in the shoes of an evolving hominid in E. Africa, or a Paleo Man, where would I possibly be able to get major sources of saturated fatty acids? It seems to me that the only place one would ordinarily obtain large quantities of saturated fatty acids would be a modern grocery store or restaurant.

                              When you look at the fatty acid compositions of wild game meat, the percent of total fat is very low, usually way down in the single digits, and that minimal quantity of fat includes lots of Omega 3 and CLA and relatively small proportions of saturated fat. Seafood is similar, and most plant foods have little or none. So what would be the sources of large amounts of saturated fat in the larger part of human evolution? Especially quantities such as some Primal enthusiasts advocate? Don't think they chased down wild bovines and milked 'em. Maybe I am missing something and I'd be interested to know.

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                              • #45
                                Off topic, but Cordain lightened up on saturated fats about a year ago. Prior to that he was... well recommending canola oil.

                                As for dairy and everything else, in moderation it isn't going to wipe out anyone who tolerates it well (think centenarians). Most research leans toward it being a net benefit to humans designed to consume it. My C-RP has gone down by half since changing my diet. My dairy consumption has increased a little, but it's surely the lack of grains, sugars and refined oil like canola that has me looking healthier.

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