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  • Vitamin D- I'm at a loss

    I've read through Mark's posts on it, tried to decipher Cilla's phototype stuff, read through several websites, and am still somewhat lost. There are 3 major questions bugging me:
    1) Partly cloudy may help with Vit D creation; overcast, you're SOL; fully sunny, you're A- OK. For each of those 3 conditions, what would you recommend (in general; I'm English/ Norwegian white) supplementing, assuming I spend half an hour outside with my arms, face, and possibly calves exposed at high noon?
    2) How plausible is it that by taking 4-6K IU oral D3 daily, I could reach toxicity levels?
    3) Is there any way to determine how much D3 you've synthesized that day in order to optimize D3 taken orally?
    Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, steak in one hand, chocolate in the other, yelling "Holy F***, What a Ride!"
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  • #2
    I just read an article by Shane Ellison, about Vitamin D, and taking supplements in synthetic form, although D3 is better than D2, he claims it's still not appropriate whatsover and risky. He recommends taking cod liver oil with NO D added..and food sources.. I used take large doses of D3 since where I am, there isn't much sun, but am going to switch to CLO.

    http://www.newswithviews.com/Ellison/shane158.htm

    please read the article and make an informed decision about vitamin d in capsule form.

    hope I helped... :-)

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    • #3
      Partly cloudy isn't reliable for good synthesis, even for very pale people. Back in the day we would be outside all of the time and it wouldn't be a problem. is pretty hard to get to toxic levels no matter what you do. Our bodies naturally want to use about 4-6k IU a day so if we take that and don't get any sunlight that will be our maintenance dose. It is pretty difficult to know how much we can synthesize. The general consensus seems to mean anywhere between 10000 and 20000 for 20-30 minutes of full body exposure, but certain factors can detract from that like low serum cholesterol.

      Just as a point of reference, I'm pretty damn pale and 3 months of 10000IU per day and all the sun exposure I could muster took me from 29 ng/ml to 37, whereas the optimal range is over 50 and toxicity is much higher than that so you can probably take supplements and get sun exposure for months before having to take a test. Testing is super important, but there isn't much danger so it doesn't have to be so frequent.
      Stabbing conventional wisdom in its face.

      Anyone who wants to talk nutrition should PM me!

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      • #4
        Originally posted by chia View Post
        I just read an article by Shane Ellison, about Vitamin D, and taking supplements in synthetic form, although D3 is better than D2, he claims it's still not appropriate whatsover and risky.

        http://www.newswithviews.com/Ellison/shane158.htm
        That was a stunning read considering my contrarian senses have been in full spidey mode lately. Vitamin D does feel very much like a fad. It is not sunshine. Thanks for tuning me into Shane. I wish he supported his more controversial statements with the evidence he seems so sure of. Anyway, I went through his archives a little. He is worth reading.

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        • #5
          I like evidence and I hate the naturalist fallacy so I'm a little bit murderous right now *brandishes knife*

          I don't think anybody should replace sunlight with vitamin d but the whole "synthetic, unnatural" bit doesn't work with vitamin d. Cholecalciferol is cholecalciferol and it is indistinguishable in pill form from the foods that he recommends. It is best to take the supplements with a lot of fat like butter or tallow.
          Stabbing conventional wisdom in its face.

          Anyone who wants to talk nutrition should PM me!

          Comment


          • #6
            My reflexologist recommended 'Vit D Revolution' book by Soram Khalsa published 2009. I haven't read it so can't comment but pretty comprehensive on the subject.

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            • #7
              Leading long-time Vitamin-D researcher Michael Holick PhD MD has a new book, "The Vitamin D Solution" that provides enough useful info to warrant a look by a Primal enthusiast.

              He maintains that you can bring Vitamin D levels into the lower reference range through supplementation, but can't do more than that, though you can ultimately achieve toxicity with enough supplementation. He suggests 2000 IU for supplementation for most folks, more for those with lots of body fat, as he argues that they need as much as 2X - 3X as much.

              Holick says that sun exposure is needed to get levels beyond the lower reference range and into the healthy range, but not too much. He has charts of suggested daily exposure depending on location and latitude in the US. In many cases 10 minutes a day several days a week with a good part of the body exposed should be enough. He states that Vitamin D from sun lasts significantly longer in the body than Vitamin D from supplements. Also that there is no practical difference in supplementing with D3 vs D2. For some years he was a pariah among dermatologists for suggesting any sun exposure.

              A lot of interesting studies cited on Vitamin D and cancer, immune function, cardiovascular function.

              Recently heard a recorded radio program featuring Dr. Loren Cordain from his website where he discussed the effect of a substance in wheat that has the effect of inhibiting Vitamin D metabolism in humans. I checked on the medical reference involved and found that the study did indeed seem to show this. Another reason to go Paleo/Primal and avoid wheat and gluten grains like the plague.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by naiadknight View Post
                I've read through Mark's posts on it, tried to decipher Cilla's phototype stuff, read through several websites, and am still somewhat lost. There are 3 major questions bugging me:
                1) Partly cloudy may help with Vit D creation; overcast, you're SOL; fully sunny, you're A- OK. For each of those 3 conditions, what would you recommend (in general; I'm English/ Norwegian white) supplementing, assuming I spend half an hour outside with my arms, face, and possibly calves exposed at high noon?
                2) How plausible is it that by taking 4-6K IU oral D3 daily, I could reach toxicity levels?
                3) Is there any way to determine how much D3 you've synthesized that day in order to optimize D3 taken orally?
                To make it simple, here's what do:

                1)some days I meticulously avoid the sun and take 1000 IU per 25 lbs body weight d3 per day
                2)on some other days, I don't take any D3 and midday, go on in a bikini until the point just before a burn occurs (about 35 min per side right now....of course that'll continue to increase as I get darker). when I do this, i still protect my face, neck, chest, hands and forarms

                your questions answered

                #1 ignore the complicated weather stuff. assume that if it's cloudy/partly cloudy you're not getting much if any and simply don't attempt D that day. take the full amount in supplements (1000 IU per 25 lbs body weight).

                #2 When I spent time outside as you describe - hands, face, neck and maybe chest (ie V-neck tshirts) and never any sunscreen, I had vitamin d levels in the mid 20s. it's typically assumed that it takes about 1000 IU to raise serum levels 10 ng/mL (of course weight plays in here as well but this is a good rule of thumb)

                #3 You won't get toxic...but what will happen is that you'll keep taking the same amount in the winter, then b/c you're not getting as much sun, your levels will drop.

                Really, we want pretty steady levels without significant droppage as it appears to affect immune function.

                Originally posted by chia View Post
                I am, there isn't much sun, but am going to switch to CLO.

                http://www.newswithviews.com/Ellison/shane158.htm
                please read the article and make an informed decision about vitamin d in capsule form.
                hope I helped... :-)
                I won't even waste my time crafting a response to that nonsense. It's ridiculous. While sun is better than supplements (ie offers more than just cholecalciferol) D3 supplements have been shown in *hundreds* of studies to be beneficial. The cholecalciferol itself is helpful reardless of it's source. The evidence is available for anyone who cares to look. the vitamindcouncil.org has links to all of the pubmed data and information on how to distill the good from the bad vitamin d science.

                Please do whatever necessary to maintain your 25(OH)D levels in the middle of the reference range.

                And on that note, why not just test your D levels? Your doc can do it or for about $65, you can do it on your own without your docs involvement.
                Last edited by cillakat; 07-04-2010, 09:00 PM.



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                • #9
                  +1 for Dr. Holicks Vitamin D Solution. I just finished it today after seeing recommended by Dr. Eades. Well written easy read with lots studies and references to support his position. He has a web site for Q&As. http://www.drholicksdsolution.com/

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Paleo Man View Post
                    He maintains that you can bring Vitamin D levels into the lower reference range through supplementation, but can't do more than that
                    Interesting. Untrue. But interesting.

                    I meticulously avoided the sun for 5 years and one month. Most of that time I maintained my D levels between 50-65 ng/mL....65ng/mL being the middle of the reference range through supplementation. When it dropped, it was because I'd fallen off the supplementation wagon.

                    I'm wondering how one can bring levels into the lower reference range with supplemention and how one can get toxic with supplementation, yet cannot achieve the middle ground of 'optimal' with supplementation. It's simply illogical.


                    So far, the best resource I've found for vitamin D information is The Vitamin D Council. www.vitamindcouncil.org



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                    • #11
                      Peter at Hyperlipid had is 25(OH)D at 112 and he never sees the sun, but he was supplementing 12k IU a day.

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                      • #12
                        Good point well taken.

                        Interestingly, one may be able to get just about any level one wants if one uses the "right" lab.

                        From the NYT Jan 7 '09 article re erroneously high levels in some tests . . .

                        "Dr. Binkley (from the Univ. of Wisconsin) said that a few years ago he sent a sample of his blood to six laboratories and got results that ranged from 14 nanograms a milliliter, which would be a deficient level, to 41 nanograms — a level three times as high and considered adequate. While the tests’ consistency has improved since then, there can still be substantial variability, he said."

                        Anyway, there is some indication that due to differing modes of serum transport of oral vs. sunlight produced Vitamin D, that oral supplement induced Vitamin D levels outside a narrow range may increase artery calcification.

                        http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18562594

                        This might argue in favor of relying upon reasonable sunlight exposure for anything beyond moderate supplementation until further definitive evidence is available. A Primal approach may be best again.

                        In the past there have been those who have touted significant oral doses of other Vitamin supplements, C, E, B6, folic acid, with supporting evidence of various benefits, only to have evidence develop in the longer run of serious increases in mortality or various disease states. Moderation in oral supplementation and an effort to use as natural an approach as possible seem like the way to go.

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                        • #13
                          Cilla- Thank you for the KISS answer.
                          Everyone else, please keep the debate and research going/ coming. Things get clearer the more data you have.
                          Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, steak in one hand, chocolate in the other, yelling "Holy F***, What a Ride!"
                          My Latest Journal

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Paleo Man View Post
                            Good point well taken.

                            Interestingly, one may be able to get just about any level one wants if one uses the "right" lab.
                            that's why we need to stick with LabCorp and ZRT (see my linked doc below)

                            Moderation in oral supplementation and an effort to use as natural an approach as possible seem like the way to go.
                            It's best to get at least some D from sun when possible....but much of the year and with most modern lifestyles, it's not possible most of the time.

                            And thankfully, D isn't a vitamin or a mineral like other substances you mentioned nor are we taking it in excess as has so often been done with other supplements. Supplemention of D should be maintained at whatever level is necessary to bring 25(OH)D levels into the range that can be achieved by intensive sun exposure.

                            The same can't be said for the other kinds of supplementation that eventually posed problems.



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                            • #15
                              I kinda figure humans didn't evolve with consistent vitamin D every day. They weren't supplementing when it was cloudy or winter. I figure some variation is probably a good thing.

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