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  • Ketosis and starvation

    So I've read that ketosis is actually a state wherein your body is in starvation, and that it is not the best way to lose fat.

    http://strength-training.wikidot.com...-final-verdict

    "First, they are not natural by-products of fat metabolism. The normal beta-oxidation of fats does produce ketone bodies but these are incorporated into the normal cycle of energy production, called the Krebs cycle. When ketone bodies are circulating in your bloodstream, it signals an abnormal physiologic state, called starvation. They are not incorporated into the normal energy cycle, the Krebs cycle, and spill into the bloodstream."

    Can someone explain this to me...
    .`.><((((> .`.><((((>.`.><((((>.`.><(( ((>
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  • #2
    Dr. Eades would love to

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    • #3
      great article grol!



      iherb referral code CIL457- $5 off first order

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      • #4
        The Eades article is a good one. Not sure why Dr Smith thinks his opinion is the 'final verdict' since he presents no scientific data to prove his point. If you follow the link to his site you will notice he is selling a magical weight loss supplement - LOL.
        My website: http://www.shoppinganywhere.net/

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        • #5
          Originally posted by jo View Post
          The Eades article is a good one. Not sure why Dr Smith thinks his opinion is the 'final verdict' since he presents no scientific data to prove his point. If you follow the link to his site you will notice he is selling a magical weight loss supplement - LOL.
          Everyone has an agenda don't they? It makes it very hard sometimes to really get to the truth. I always say follow the money and your will get your answer.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Grol View Post
            Thanks a lot. I believe ketones are the most efficient fuel (no crashes, no crazy hunger, etc) but I guess it would be good to go off ketosis once in a while. I don't know, surprise the body? Restore leptin?
            .`.><((((> .`.><((((>.`.><((((>.`.><(( ((>
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            • #7
              I don't believe there is ever just one right answer. But I do believe there are wrong ones.

              And to think that our body would create a survival mechanism toxic to itself is completely ignorant of the bodies complexity and beauty.

              We can argue about what is optimal for fat loss all day long, but in the end, it's what works best for that individual person.
              sigpic
              In Pursuit of Healthiness, Only to Achieve Happiness!: www.livingnotsurviving.com

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              • #8
                I, for one, do not believe in starvation "mode" unless you're adrift at sea contemplating eating your bicep. I have tried to starve -- lose weight or die. My body loved the experience. Unfortuntately, I'm a classic example of set point theory yo yo-ing back to a higher weight after each weight loss crash. So finding a sustainable approach, thank you Mark, was key. Discovering and conquering my addiction to sugar + carbs is life changing.

                Caution: Grol pretends to know things below

                Our basal metabolism is responsible for 65-80% of the calories we burn, depending on lifestyle. It's just the body's natural processes constantly burning calories at sleep, play or rest. Starving, fasting or ketosis doesn't make any of that stop -- heart, lungs, etc. Well, unless you die. What stops or slows is thermogenic metabolism -- the calories your digestive system burns handling food. No food? No thermogenic metabolism. This is generally only 10% of the calories we burn on three squares a day and less for intermittent fasters. Starving will put the brakes on that 10% (or less). So here's your metabolic starvation mode -- the calories you burn digesting calories you ate will not be burned because there is no food to digest. Duh. There's quite a bit of evidence suggesting this down time for the digestive system can heal inflammation and accelerate fat burning. I can concur with that anecdotally. I'll agree bad things could be happening nutritionally, but maybe not. Fat stores are nutritious enough and ketosis makes utilizing them possible. IFing + PB seem to have that possible concern covered.

                The rest of the calories we burn, 10-25%, is from our physical activity and starving can slow that down some. That depends on the person. I have increased my exercise 20 days into a fast, and good god did the fat fall off of me when I did. Starvation mode? Nope. Muscle loss? Very little, if any. Fat loss? Yes, and a side benefit is visceral fat loss seemed amplified. My belly shrunk an inch a day for a few days late in that fast.

                This is obviously oversimplified and different people will react differently, but ketosis and fasting are two of the healthiest things for *my* body -- mental clarity is just an added bonus.

                I broke a 50 hour fast yesterday. I felt better before I ate than after, but the food was good. I'm also just starting to recognize benefits from over eating cyclically while intermittent fasting, but I need to go through the cycle several more times and do some reading. It would seem to make sense that Grok binged after a successful kill in times of scarcity. Have we adapted to benefit from that sort of pattern?

                Here's an old time performance athletes documented experience on a 7 day water fast with 10 mile daily hikes. He seems to have achieved the result Rphlslv is seeking in another thread.

                There's a lot of big brains taking shots at the low carb diet culture. I read them for months while deciding what the heck to do about my health problems. In the end they are not convincing. They make a lot of minor points that pale in the face of major ones. They construct straw men from impressive polysyllabicism (hehe) with controversial explanations then blow them up so they can sugar fix with whole grain muffins and power bars. No thanks.
                Last edited by Grol; 06-13-2010, 09:49 AM.

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                • #9
                  (A) Ketogenic diet = (B)No Carbs
                  (C) Starvation = (B)No Carbs


                  A=B
                  C=B
                  Therefore
                  A=C

                  But that is false because Starvation=No food and ketogenic diet=lots of food. Why-must-fucking-medical-"professionals"-affirm-the-consequent-constantly?-This-shit-would-never-stand-in-physics-or-philosophy-rarg
                  Stabbing conventional wisdom in its face.

                  Anyone who wants to talk nutrition should PM me!

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                  • #10
                    I've been in ketosis for months now. I must be starving because I've lost 50 pounds. All that damn bacon. And steak. And veg. GRRR. lol
                    Melissa Fritcher - 330/252/150
                    http://lessofmimi.wordpress.com
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                    • #11
                      I've read plenty of articles connecting ketosis and your body's "emergency" starvation reaction, but never in a negative light. Most see it as a positive thing that kicks your metabolism into second gear haha.
                      sigpic

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Grol View Post
                        I have increased my exercise 20 days into a fast, and good god did the fat fall off of me when I did. Starvation mode? Nope. Muscle loss? Very little, if any. Fat loss? Yes, and a side benefit is visceral fat loss seemed amplified. My belly shrunk an inch a day for a few days late in that fast.
                        20 days? Wow. I've done 24 hours, and 18-20 is normal for me (if I miss brekkie and lunch). Any bad effects?
                        20 days!

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                        • #13
                          20 days? I love ketosis and low carb, but fuck no. That's a little too far lol.
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                          • #14
                            After a 24 hour fast I feel fine, but at 32 hours I feel weak and broken down. I can't imagine 20 days. I'm thinking about trying 48 hours purely as an experiment, an endurance test of sorts. I wonder how I'll feel in those last few hours...
                            I began this Primal journey on December 30th, 2009 and in that time I've lost over 125 LBS.

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                            • #15
                              To clarify, the 20 days I commented on was the point where I increased my exercise from daily walks, to jogging, and lifting... in the middle of a 30 day juice fast. Juicing supplied between 300 and 900 calories a day and a bunch of sugar for fuel. About 10 of the 30 days were water only. My longest water fast was 14 days. I don't mention any of this to recommend it or brag. It may be stupid to do that to your system. Just to share my observations having been sucked into the fasting culture during my last run at serious weight loss. I do believe fasting can be therapeutic, but it is so unsustainable, unless you are a lot smarter and stronger than I was, you just rebound to a worse place from where you started.

                              Here's two things I know about water fasting (even juice fasting can be a tool in the health shed). Water fasting will break any plateau you hit. Even dead bodies lose weight doing absolutely nothing when they don't eat. hehe Your living body will do even better. Fasting can build your will power muscle. It may not really be a muscle but there is clear evidence it can be strengthened with exercise. Jokamon, I didn't recommend it for your plateau because it's not worth the debate, but I am down 40 pounds in 44 days and when I feel a plateau, I will simply stop eating for a couple days. I get hungry in 20-24 hours and fall asleep. I wake up fine. I get hungry again around lunch. I fight through it and my appetite is defeated going forward from there for a few days if I want. Literally THERE IS NO MORE hunger. I have built a fence, running a pneumatic hammer for 7 hours on the 6th day of a 7 day water fast. I had better energy than anyone on the job site and worked straight through lunch while they drank beer, ate burritos and whistled at girls.

                              I need to stop with the fasting talk though.

                              One more thing though, Rphlslv, I didn't mention it in your tubby tummy thread but if, lord willing, I ever get as lean as you again, and hit that wall... I fast. That's just me though. Some fasting rats live twice as long as the ones who eat every day. hehe

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