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Journal of a Weary Dragon

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  • I have finally read all the NK threads on Low Carb Friends. It all suddenly stops in the middle of Feb. Shame, as I would like to know how everyone has got on. I did check out the other NK monthly thread but red??? seems like another choco & I don’t want to go there so have ditched that forum

    Pebbles has been reading the Dr Rosedale book & sharing her findings (Thx Pebbles). Because of this I have gone back over his website & downloaded the book extract. The guy is an egotistical idiot (he invented Nk, eat grains, don’t eat sat fat, don’t count cals) & not for me. His protein formula is HSIS LBM (lb)/2-10% which is just under V&P but not as low as my starting point. I don’t much get the logic behind his formula, it rather seems to be plucked out of thin air, but maybe that’s because I am just put off him anyway. I will leave well alone.

    I also found the Diet Doctors NK experiment results. He lost 4.5kg & inches off his waist – this in someone who didn’t need to lose weight.

    Finally, I listened to the Phinney pod casts on Jimmy Moore’s show. He is very interesting to listen too & he thinks Fasting is bad – the body needs its daily dose of protein. I can see the point in that so am happy IF will not hurt.

    I will have to relistened to the pod cast re stalling again though to take it in properly (I was doing something else at the same time as usual so may have missed some bits).

    I think I am all researched out on this NK thing now. Every thing I am finding now is either just downright stupid or confirms what I all ready know. I just have to keep tracking & measuring & see what falls out long term. I now need something else to focus on so this all mellows into the background & I just do it. Maybe I need to stay away from the forum for a while. We shall see.


    • JUDD / 2 Day Diet – something to try if the stall continues

      Others (Demuralist, RMS123 etc) have decided to do JUDD (Up day, down day). It is possible to it NK style (on a down day eat the protein & carbs but lose the fat). This very similar to Michael Mosley’s 2 day diet where you eat 600 cals 2 days of the week. If I don’t break out of this stall post next TOM I think I might try it. I have a lot of time for MM & this seems to be the one WOE he has stuck to. I also like the fact he wrote the book in conjunction with a woman so we get both points of view. O2k has already started it. I will be following his progress closely


      • Sat 16/3

        I give up. Yesterday was a good day – missed my HCWC in the evening & had a bit of an olive fest but kept cals below 1130 to compensate for Thursday, wasn’t hungry & I’VE PUT ON 3 lb WTF? I can only assume it’s to do with all those nut & salted butter on Thursday.

        After this week I only have 1 more week & my 4 week first cycle is up so will keep going 'til then. Logically I can’t possibly have really put on 3lb as I have still been in deficit all week. Maybe this really is about foods that agree with you. I still feel like crying though.


        • Nuts do it to me every time. Sigh.
          -- Ruth


          • You give me hope. I have never tracked to this degree before so I have no idea.

            I am trying to contain myself from rushing out & getting my fav meal of chocolate cheese & chicken (would put me way over the protein but I'm beginning to think what the hell.


            • Don't give up, DG. Seriously. It might take a week to work off (nuts take at least a week for me, unless it's just one or two). If you do, it'll just take longer to work it off and it's that much harder to get back into NK. Hang tight. If things don't work after the week, you can join us on UDDD rotations and see if those work
              -- Ruth


              • Sun 17/3
                Sometimes no money is a good thing. Having worked out the cost of me going to the store & buying my favourite food, al with money I don’t have, I decided to be prudent & mentally chalk up the saving into my GoWearFit/blood ketone strip fund.

                So this morning, despite only having only eaten 600 cals & not losing anything, at least I can feel virtuous.


                • On the loss after a low day (forgive me that I'm on my iPad,so a little cryptic). You'll notice from my one week trial that I did not really see adipose until about a week in. From what I've seen, that's fairly typical. Not suggesting you try uddd, just offering a little perspective
                  -- Ruth


                  • Thanks - not really sure what to do right now. I feel I should stay as I am for a final week & if I had just stalled I would be happy. But to keep gaining 3 days is a row is really getting to me.


                    • Low Calorie For Maximum Weight Loss?
                      Had an interesting discussion with Demuralist & Pebbles on EMF thread last night re low cals. The new improved Keto Calculator gives me a BMR 0f 1691 which is similar to my current n=1 trending BMR of 1631 & BIA BMR of 1642. If I take the lowest ‘safe’ dietary fat intake of 30g 5to prevent gallstones as per P&V A&S of Lo Carb Living, the lowest I can healthily go is 494 cals, P46g, C10g, and F30g.

                      This would make a good down day for JUDDD I suppose & in theory I could live on this for a month or two giving me a weight loss of 2.4lb/wk (being in fat burning mode & burning BF efficiently at 22cals/lb FM/d I should be able to easily make up the shortfall (Wt 170lb BF 39% 66lb min cals burnt from BF = 22x66=1450 cal/d)

                      Ancel Keyes did a study on starvation during the war

                      They Starved So That Others Be Better Fed: Remembering Ancel Keys and the Minnesota Experiment

                      However, if you look at the starvation diet the subjects were put on (potatoes, turnips, rutabagas, dark bread, and macaroni) it was hardly nutritionally complete & at 1800 cals it was hardly a starvation diet (Ancel himself called it semi starvation at half the 3200 cals the subjects were put on as a standardisation diet, before hand. The subjects were also asked to perform physically active tasks. 6 miles of walking a day is hardly physically demanding. The subjects were all men with much lower body fat stores (those with the leanest BF% suffered the most & the experiment was for 6 months. All of which doesn’t hold true for me doing this for 4-8 weeks.

                      The only issue I have is the potential effect on by metabolism. But if my metabolism slows down despite burning all this available body fat then that seems to put the whole idea of nutritional ketosis & being a fat burning beast into question.


                      • There has been a lot of discussion re giving up dairy etc. If I were to find the magic formula to staying in NK, lose all the weight & then maintain for life what could I give up:

                        Grain Free & Sugar Free for Life
                        No grain or sugar I can do for life – I feel great, I have no craving for sweet things & no bloating. TOM is painless & bloats less even if it is slightly heavier maybe. 90% chocolate is the only thing I would eat that contains sugar & that is only as an occasional treat

                        Very Low Carb for Life
                        If it meant losing the weight, finding my abs & keeping it all off, I could do low carb for life. Yes I miss the fruit but a couple of portions of in season berries a week when available would be doable. Non starchy veg I miss but it's liveable.

                        No Dairy For Life
                        Butter I can live with out, not having used it for years until I started EMF. Cream enables me to drink hot chocolate in the winter which I would miss, & frozen in an ice cube tray gives me an alternative for ice cream in the summer. Cheese I suppose I could live without on a daily basis, leaving it as a treat like 90% chocolate. Milk I don’t use anyway. So the hardest part would be to give up the cream long term but would be doable for 30 days to see if it made a difference to the weight loss

                        Low Protein For Life
                        This is the difficult one. I miss not eating a large beef burger smothered in cheese, or a small kebab or my favourite meal of a roast chicken breast with a large hunk of Port Salut. Whilst I am on a very restricted budget, low protein is a good thing & works well. But not sure I would want to restrict it every day for life.


                        • A final option may be the preditor diet. I like the look of this & he speaks my lanuage (food is fuel - dont cheat) but need to do more reading.

                          Primal North: Keto-Adaptation vs. Low Carb Limbo

                          Primal North: The Predator Diet

                          Primal North: Primal North "Rules" for Food & Movement

                          Maybe I could combine it with JUDDD, SLD & leptin reset to get the best of all worlds

                          Whatever, I am glad I have made it through another day without taking in more protein or binging out on the fat. That is not the answer.

                          I did bitch & whine on the EMF thread today (more form despair than anything else). Pebbles suggested I go for 1320 cals(BMR of 1650 - 20% assuming that number is correct) & 55g protein.

                          I am truly grateful for everyone's support but I don't really know what to do.


                          • Supplementation

                            Posting this so I can find it again. it's great info on supplements

                            Beyond Good and Evil - Weston A Price Foundation

                   re fish oil quantity


                            • Originally posted by Ddraig Goch View Post
                              A final option may be the preditor diet. I like the look of this & he speaks my lanuage (food is fuel - dont cheat) but need to do more reading.
                              I'm trending this way...not because I necessarily want to, but because it seems like my body is liking this better. Of course, now I'm trying to figure out what kind of fat/protein ratio is best and how much offal I need. Other than trying to figure out how to make this work with my family, it feels pretty natural. My digestive system seems happy.

                              Also check out this site, which is by the same Primal North guy. Mostly Meat Is What I Eat I especially like this post, which has me thinking a lot. Mostly Meat Is What I Eat: example menu

                              I feel your frustration...
                              -- Ruth


                              • Where do I go from here Part 1?
                                1) According to Pebbles, Dr Rosedale’s idea is that you should minimise sat fat for first 3-4 weeks as body fat is basically sat fat & in the first weeks the body is learning how to burn it efficiently (Lyle McDonald (another egotist – they do make reading their stuff hard work) suggests that most dietary fat is stored anyway – if carbs are low enough body fat is oxidised to a greater degree, dietary fat has no effect on oxidization so another reason not to go too high on the fat input Nutrient Intake, Nutrient Storage and Nutrient Oxidation | BodyRecomposition - The Home of Lyle McDonald)

                                2) Lots of people think dairy should be out especial cheese for some reason but butter is not really dairy as it has no milt proteins. I have never done a whole 30 on dairy before

                                3) Jack Kruse in his leptin reset suggests:
                                Eat at least 50g protein no later than 30mins after rising with fat but no carbs. The idea is that this should satiate you throughout the day & the metabolism needs to get revved up etc. There are those who would say that primally, & to fit in with the circadian rhythm, dinner should be the only meal of the day – it needs to be caught first. The counter argument would be that they would have kept something back to give them energy to go do the catching. Whatever, I’m desperate so breakfast it is. (It would also all get burnt off before the end of the day)
                                Don’t snack as it over taxes the liver (have also read elsewhere that snacking causes body fat oxidation to pause as the body oxides the snack first so can understand this). You should aim for 1 or 2 meals a day
                                Dinner should be 4-5 hrs before bed
                                Don’t work out initially & when you do , don’t do it before breakfast (this could be tricky one as that is when I would chose to do it, but don’t need to worry about it yet)
                                Restrict cabs to 25g – no problem
                                Don’t count cals – would need to track for data purposes
                                CO is good as it helps to heal the gut & has a metabolic affect. Don’t use EVOO or nut oils. Butter & cream is ok
                                Take fish oils
                                MY LEPTIN PRESCRIPTION | Living an Optimized Life

                                Anther blogger (cant remember who) provided similar rules:
                                1. Never eat after dinner. Finish eating dinner at least three hours before bed.
                                2. Eat three meals a day. Allow 5-6 hours between meals. Do not snack!
                                3. Do not eat large meals. Finish a meal when you are slightly less than full.
                                4. Eat a high protein breakfast.
                                5. Reduce the amount of carbs eaten.

                                So we have some contradictions here – dairy or not dairy, sat fat or not sat fat. I wonder if CO is metabolized by the liver? Do CO shots count as snacks? I guess so