No announcement yet.

Journal of a Weary Dragon

  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Carb refeeds

    I came across this post today:

    Originally posted by tatertot View Post
    Everyone says we need to be insulin sensitive, otherwise we become obese diabetics, but when eating a ketogenic diet, if we aren't insulin resistant, we will die of hypoglycemia (low blood sugar). We need to maintain our ability to be insulin resistant when we aren't loading our blood with glucose.

    It seems then, that if we eat low carb all the time, we become (out of necessity) insulin resistant. Then when we eat some carbs, we don't have the sensitivity to deal with the glucose.

    I'm thinking carb refeeds fill the need for maintaining insulin sensitivity and a hack like the potato diet even makes more sense when used as a sort of once or twice a year insulin sensitivity reset.
    It makes a lot of sense I guess, so I won't close my mind to refeeds in the future just need to get more research done


    • Why eating high protein on VLC diet works

      Scrapbook mode again. Want to check this lot out properly later

      Resistance training preserves muscle during weight loss and will enable the body to lose only fat when in a negative calorie bal
      Last edited by Ddraig Goch; 04-04-2013, 09:53 PM. Reason: add link


      • Thu 4/4

        Completed my first 36hr fast today. It was easier than I expected & I could have carried on but I have chicken that needs eating up (bought before I started portioning up before freezing) & with eating less protein it takes longer to use up


        • Originally posted by Ddraig Goch View Post
          Carb refeeds

          I came across this post today:

          It makes a lot of sense I guess, so I won't close my mind to refeeds in the future just need to get more research done
          Something about the logic seems "off", but I'm so unscientific, I can't reason it out. I feel like since I've gone VLC, my previous IR has been "cured". However, my seemingly inability to not digest carbs well is perhaps (although perhaps not) a problem. Also, does "excess" protein fulfill the same thing? So, if one does PSMF, eating more than the 50or so g of protein some of seem to have to stay at, are we okay? [Maybe a nonsensical question]

          On your post below, I had read that, but not really (if that makes sense). I have always like PK's posts, though I don't come across them much since I rarely venture beyond the 4 or 5 journals I frequent.
          -- Ruth


          • Another light bulb moment

            Onthe assumption thst the BMR calculator in MFP is as good as any (it uses the Mifflin-St. Jeor equations to estimate BMR which is believed to be more accurate than the more commonly used Harris-Benedict equation) my BMR comes out at 1413 cals.

            To lose a lb of fat a week I have to under eat by 500 cals which means I can only eat 913 cals/day to lose weight effectively.

            No wonder the scales are bouncing up and down in the same spot if I eat 1200 cals/day

            NB: Of course I knew all of this really. I just got bogged down by the cries of "Starvation Mode", "You MUST east no less than BMR-20%". That might work for those with a higher BMR than mine but not for me.

            NB2: Yes I am applying CICO but I LIKE that theory so those who don't please go away & leave me to my delusional self.


            • PSMF Alternative

              The The Perfect Health Diet (weight loss version) also suggests a low cal is the only way to lose weight. especially for older women. It recommends keeping carb+protein minimum of 500 cals for women & to include 3 eggs daily (yolks at least) & 1/4lb beef liver weekly as they contain high levels of choline (choline deficiency apparently causes weight gain). It also suggests daily IFing (miss B/fast)

              Calorie reduction should be in the reduction of fat (same as PSMF). However omegaq-3 deficiency may also prevent weigh loss so a lb of salmon or sardines is suggested per week. Lean beef white poultry meat should be the remainder of any meat (chicken & turkey dark meat is high in omega-6 fats)

              NB: PHD suggests a minimum of 50g of carb are required to prevent zero-carb dangers which can lead to glucose deficiency (not convinced on this point but need to re-read it)

              This is do able on 727 cals Pg 65 Cg 49 Fg 27 (38-28-34)
              Last edited by Ddraig Goch; 04-05-2013, 09:51 AM.


              • Durkan suggests that people who have lost weight (particularly multiple times) are more efficient at extracting calories from food. So, if before you got 100 calories out of a piece of bread, now you get 120 - same piece. So, some of us may need fewer calories than others, given our utilization rate.
                -- Ruth


                • Thanks for that uplifting piece of advice. Ha Ha. I am taking a break right now as I don't know what to think. My head is spinning, nothing is working & I need to focus on other things for a while.

                  I'm sure the only way to lose the weight for me is to eat some form of PSMF. I also think daily fasting is a good WOE for life for health purposes. I am convinced ADF/JUDDD is not the way forward because you don't really fast long enough to get the fat burning & health benefits. They are really just a form of CR (especially if you eat throughout your DD). Also by daily fasting you have to get the hunger & snacking under control (eating more one day that the next doesn't allow the body's hunger signals time to adjust) so it should make it easier to move onto a PSMF of some sort.

                  Whatever happens - I will not eat grain or any form of sugar or AS. I have not done so for over a year & have no intention of ever doing so again.

                  I will also continue to restrict my protein levels to approx 50g because my body is happy with that at the moment & doesn't need any more. Daily tracking has become a way of life & there is no longer any emotion invested in it so I will continue to do it for future reference (As a female I think it necessary to view monthly cycles of data rather than weekly cycles, so it takes a while to set up some base data)

                  Much as I have enjoyed my 3 month long foray into high fat, I would be kidding myself if I said it was the answer. I am going to ditch the dairy completely as I run out of it (at least whilst I still have weight to lose) mainly because it is un-necessary & can be moreish (the same with nuts). Any fat I need can come from CO & OO because at least they have some actual health benefit.

                  So for now I am going to use FAST-5 to get the long daily fast sorted whilst doing my 5k training program. Then I will be back to journal my PSMF journey (I may pop back in the meantime if I have anything to add but for now all the research & weight loss angst stops here).

                  PS: Thanks for your support RMS, I look forward to catching up with your journey again in a few months.
                  Last edited by Ddraig Goch; 04-08-2013, 02:18 AM. Reason: clarification


                  • I understand. I'll miss you, though, so I hope you'll pop in and say 'hi' on occasion.

                    The Moseley book is on sale for $5ish on Amazon if you are interested in reading that. I have not purchased it yet.
                    -- Ruth


                    • Sun 14/4 Update - Part 1

                      My baseline n=1
                      Having decided to take time out from weight loss mode I have purposefully eaten what I wanted over the past this week, no holds barred but still weighed & tracked everything. I was curious to see what I would actually consume on a day to day basis if not on a diet. I did not follow any particular macro nutrients but did not consume any grains, sugar or AS. I have also decided to become dairy free after this particular n=1 (at least until get to HSIS weight). I also dropped all the extra fat (CO, EVOO & butter) as I was getting sick of it. I started the week eating lots of HCWC ostensibly to use up the cream in the freezer, but when I realized I was just eating it for the sake of it I junked it all down the sink. (NB: That really surprised me as cream is a trigger food but having taken the dieting pressure off, it no longer became a ‘must have’). I also introduced white potatoes back into my diet, partly because I have been reading a lot about the potato hack & resistant starches & partly because I have been VLC (<6g) for over 6 mths with no weight loss & I wanted to break the cycle (you could call it a crude carb refeed). Potatoes eaten with a tsp of AVC per potatoe to lessen the glucose spike, seemed a fairly innocuous way of doing it.

                      The result
                      The upshot of all of this is that I have put on 7lb. Since my average cal intake for the week was 2232 & TDEE 1650 at most this would be 1.2lb fat & the rest is probably water weight from all the extra carbs (yes I like CICO so trolls please stay away). This is also born out in my stomach having lost it’s ‘deflated balloon ‘ appearance but me still being able to wear my ’thin’ jeans. My average macros were Pg 80, Cg 139, Fg 141 %(15-26-59) so without trying to, the fat stayed quite high & the protein was still reasonably moderate.

                      I have also tried to be more mindful about my eating habits this week, keeping detailed notes on time of eating & hunger scale evertoime I eat.

                      So what have I learnt?
                      I have been doing 16/8 IF for the past 2 months & am keen to get down to 20/4 ie one meal a day for the long term health benefits that come with fasting. However, I have found that once the eating window is ‘opened’ it is difficult to stop eating. Satiety has nothing to do with it. If I am procrastinating or bored or food is available I eat.

                      DD eats expensive rubbish - high carb (pasta & rice), high sugar, low fat, fruit but no veg, minimal preparation. DS eats cheap rubbish -again high carb (potatoes & corn flakes), soy (he is lactose intolerant) poor quality sausages & meat, veg but no fruit. Both are in their early 20’s & take after their father, tall, lean (DS has great abs) & (most importantly) eat only when hungry. I understand that being young, their bodies are very forging re their poor diet. But what I don’t get is how they can have their favourite foods in front of them all the time yet only eat when they need to. Some days this may be 3 meals in one go, others it may be snack all day. This is the sort of relationship I would like to have with food but have no idea how to get there.


                      • DG - I was just thinking of you yesterday! Interesting results. Thank you for posting. Oddly enough, this morning, I was considering adding some reasonable carbs back in - no grains, etc. - but some veggies, maybe a little potato.

                        Have you watched these two Mosley videos? Well worth a view if you have not.
                        Video: The Truth About Exercise with Michael Mosley | Watch Michael Mosley Online | PBS Video
                        Video: The Truth About Exercise with Michael Mosley | Watch Michael Mosley Online | PBS Video

                        My DH has the same relationship with food as you describe. It's amazing. He had to tweak a few things once he hit his 30s (and the desk job, no bike riding, etc.), but is now back to 130 lb with no effort (I cook primally and he eats that, with the addition of some rice on occasion [he is Asian] and more treats).
                        -- Ruth


                        • Sun 14/4 Update - Part 2

                          Moving forward – Long Term
                          I believe the optimal eating plan long term would be 1 meal a day (20/4 fasting1) with a weekly /bi weekly 44hr fast2, all the while eating for NK & to true hunger levels3

                          However, to know if this really is MY optimal eating plan I need to be able to test. To do that I need to make the testing tools available to me. Until then I shall concentrate on small steps forward to get me to where I think that place might be.

                          Moving forward – Short Term (Stage 1)
                          I am very interested in the use of proper fasting (i.e. not taking in any calories) for long term health. I also have a trapped nerve in my shoulder which I am very keen to get rid of but physio, pain killers & heat packs don’t seem to be doing much good (yes I know I need to be patient but it hasn’t improved since Christmas & I want to get to a point of being free of pain & start LHT). So I want to explore doing a long (4-7 day) water fast as painlessly as possible. TO do that I need top be in NK for awhile & used to regular fasting.

                          The idea of the potato hack (PPD) also fascinates me. I’m not an advocate of eating carbs & truly believe that they are not actually necessary for life. So I don’t really expect it to work for me. However, not having lost any significant weight for nearly a year now despite being very low carb, I am happy to give anything a go as long as it doesn’t involve eating grains or sugar.

                          I must be out of NK given my increased carbs over the past week so the PPD doing it now would mean not having to knock myself out of NK purposefully later. I also have a lot of potatoes here at the moment. So I think now would be a good time to put this ideas to bed once & for all. I also think that eating such a bland food for 2 weeks might help psychologically to alter my relationship to food.

                          I am also going to use the time to move my eating window from 5hrs where it is right now down to 1 hour as potatoes are very satiating.


                          • Sun 14/4 Update - Part 3

                            Moving forward – Short Term (Stage 2)
                            Having completed the 2 week PPD (for better or worse) & getting my eating window down to 1 hr a day I want to move to a fasted PSMF plan with extra fat. PSMF is basically eating 1g protein per lb body weight with no additional carbs or fats (approx 500 cals). Strict CR is the only way I believe I can lose weight. However, PSMF should only be done for a short period of time & under doctor supervision. I want to do it on my own & for longer (NB: Don’t do this at home). I intend to modify it slightly as follows:

                            1) I like Seth Robert’s idea of eating flavourless fat as per the SLD to reset my weight set point. Even if it doesn’t actually work, this is also a good way to get extra fat in the body without just mindlessly eating a stick of butter. I also want to keep my supps spilt-into 2 which a 1 hour eating window won’t allow for so taking the am ones with an oil shot makes sense. Taking CO also helps keep the body in NK & provides energy without taking the body out of its fasted state so this is another good reason to do this.

                            2) Calorie cycling is probably a good way of keeping the body guessing & helping the RMR to remain high(ish). So I will incorporate the UD/DD protocol but still with a significant CR deficit. To do this I will use a 1hr eating window on a DD & a 2hr eating window on an UD. It takes 4hrs for a 600 cal meal to be digested so I will use max 600 cal + 120cal oil shot on DD & max 1000 cal + 2x 120cal oil shots (2nd one only if required) on UD

                            3) Modified protein is required for NK so eating the recommended protein would definitely keep me out. By calorie cycling I will eat slightly lower than the 50g I think I need on a DD (46g = min required for a woman) & approx 64g on an UD. This will average out to 55g over a 2 day cycle.

                            4) Fat will be kept to approx 70% on both days. This should keep me in NK. Fish will be eaten every day (as well as continuing the fish oil supps) & 3 egg yolks & oz liver will also be included daily as per the PHD (seems like a good idea). Bone broth will be included on a DD.

                            4) Depending on how the PPD goes I may include 100g potatoes on UD (TBC)

                            Moving forward – Short Term (Stage 3)
                            If the shoulder hasn't healed & I am on track with my eating windows & have followed the above PSMF protocol successfully for 12 weeks I will try a 5 day water fast.

                            This will take me forward for the next 15 weeks which will get me to the end of my C25K training &first 5k event, by which time I hope to be able to start testing properly.

                            1A 20\4 fast does not mean a 4hr eating window. It takes the body 4hrs to digest a 600 cal meal so eating 1 meal a day means an actual 20 hrs of fasting. I hope that being rigid with this will help cut my poor psychological relationship with food.
                            2A 44hr fast simply means missing a daily meal & continuing the fast to the next daily meal.
                            3For info on true hunger: AllAboutFasting

                            (NB: I don’t agree that simply eating less ie <500 cals over a period of time is fasting as some are doing on JUDDD or the ADF thread. True fasting occurs only when no calories have been consumed for at least 4hrs but that is IMO, YMMV)
                            Last edited by Ddraig Goch; 04-14-2013, 06:51 AM.


                            • Originally posted by RMS123 View Post
                              DG - I was just thinking of you yesterday! Interesting results. Thank you for posting. Oddly enough, this morning, I was considering adding some reasonable carbs back in - no grains, etc. - but some veggies, maybe a little potato. ..
                              HI RMS, how is the weight loss going?. I am purposefully staying away from the forum at the moment as you know but will post updates on my progress here as and when.

                              I know you have problems with carbs so maybe you should try adding back white potatoes first for a week (they seem like a bland first try but of course being nightshades may affect you) then other veg on a week by week basis to see what causes problems (if you have already tried this then sorry)

                              Originally posted by RMS123 View Post
                              Have you watched these two Mosley videos? ..
                              I watched them when they first came out. It was the exercise program that first drew Mosley to my attention. Glad you found them useful. I’m still waiting for the book but am less excited now as I think his idea of fasting is slightly out. Still, it will make a good read when I finally do get hold of it.

                              Originally posted by RMS123 View Post
                              My DH has the same relationship with food as you describe..
                              MY DH never put weight on & was never any more active than he had to be. We never forced food on the children even when they were small so they now have this healthy relationship with food. I on the other hand was made to eat everything up (think of the starving people in africa lol). I wish I new all about NK etc when he got sick. I don’t think it would have cured him but It might have made his last few months easier.


                              • After nearly 2 years away I have decided to renew my acquaintance with my journal. I am pleased to say I have been sugar & grains free all this time ( will never go back to eating either of them even if not being able to eat anything out of a packet can be difficult at times) and my carb level is rarely over 10% unless I’m on a potato refeed (approx once every 3mths). I am also please to report I am still a size 12 UK (not sure what that is in the US).

                                However, I have spent a year of not quite finishing my goal of completing a 5k plan and have levelled off at around 170lb as my new set point (3st lighter than when I started back in 2011). Having not counted cals or anything for the last year now is the time to move forward at lowering the set point nearer to my HSIS weight of 137lb.

                                Hence I am back and will use my journal to track my progress.

                                The Plan – Phase 1
                                I’m going to do Lyle’s PSMF Cat 3 for 12 weeks whilst sticking to a ‘Run with your dog 5k ‘ plan in the mornings every other day and the FAST 5k Beginners plan on the treadmill on the same days in the evening.
                                3 further days will be spent on the Turbo trainer with every 8th day off.
                                Since I have no arm strength what so ever I‘m going to be following a bingo wings weight program on the non running days before doing Marks .PBF program in phase 2.

                                Phase 1 Goals
                                • To lose 24lb in 12 weeks
                                • To complete my run programs and be able to run 5k non stop
                                • To get back into my size 10 UK jeans

                                Having just finished a few days on a potato refeed I am currently bloated with water so will weigh and start on Monday but at least I have set expectations with myself now.

                                I’m in two minds whether to do PSMF or JUDDD but have always wanted to try PSMF properly so I’m going to give it a go. After that I might try JUDDD for phase 2.
                                Last edited by Ddraig Goch; 01-22-2015, 08:14 AM.