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  • #31
    I'm in to see how it goes for you Choco, good luck!

    BTW, thanks for being a guinea pig for the rest of us

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    • #32
      Originally posted by yodiewan View Post
      @Forgotmylastusername: I think you might be thinking about this Lyle McDonald post: The Full Diet Break | BodyRecomposition - The Home of Lyle McDonald
      .
      I think it was from Lyle that I read about leptin not rising significantly over just a few refeeds. That article talks about raising calories to maintenance whereas my break raised them almost 100%. I might do a more sensible version in a few months time. I'll keep the food clean but i'll raise my calories around 30%.









      Originally posted by ChocoTaco369 View Post
      This is fantastic advice IMO. Back when I did the UD2 and was reading a lot by Lyle McDonald (who is an overly pompous and self-righteous douche, but he is smart and knows his stuff), he recommended everyone do a full week eating larger amounts of carbohydrates to "reset" their metabolism. Obviously, you'd have to drop fats in lieu of the carbs, but your metabolism seems to be less affected by brief periods of low-fat than brief periods of low-carb.

      I think I'm going to take your advice. While I think you "did it wrong" in the sense that you chose the wrong foods, I like the methodology (I just have no desire for bread and pasta anymore but I am ALL OVER fruit, potatoes and a little rice). I've probably been averaging 40-50g of fat/day, so I probably shouldn't immediately jump into the 100+g range. I think I'll do the first week upping carbs on off-days to 150g/day and bumping fats to 70g/day for a whole week, THEN I'll drop carbs to the 75g range and up fats. I have learned by now that the body doesn't respond well to change and "gradual" seems to be usually preferrential to "shock." 40g/fat per day to 100g/fat per day is closer to "shock" than I want to be. I'm sure I'll in the short term GAIN fat with this change, but in the long run, I think it'll benefit.
      A less dramatic increase might be a good option. I went from about 100g of carbs at 2000 calories to about 600g of carbs at about 4000 calories for 5 days. That also included no exercise besides the light activity at work. It might be kind of risky for some people. Next time i'll probably take it to about 3000 calories at 70% carbs and remain fairly sedentary for the week. I'll probably do a journal post during it. I'm only a novice to all of this so I still have a lot of experimenting and learning to do. My goals are not to bulk or gain strength, just to remain lean and healthy as effortlessly as possible while enjoying good healthy primal food over 80% of the time.

      The biggest surprise to me after this splurge was how easily I shed fat afterwards (not just the water weight). It reminded me of how easily I originally lost when I first started started dieting.
      Right now I'm the leanest I have been since last year and it's been fairly easy.
      At the beginning of this year I was really struggling moving any weight no matter how strict I was eating. I was also becoming obsessive and developing a pretty bad relationship with food. I was also exercising and feeling really run down and fatigued, that was just before I started doing weekly refeeds which helped a lot. But not to the extent this latest 5 day diet break has.
      Last edited by Forgotmylastusername; 05-31-2012, 04:23 PM.

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      • #33
        Choco, if you think you may have skewed your metabolism, have you thought about getting blood work done to see where you stand?

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        • #34
          Originally posted by NDF View Post
          chronic undereating does cause metabolic issues. especially when the undereating is paired with low carb diets and intermittent fasting - I also learnt that the hard way. I was all about bigger deficits for faster fat loss. That with lower carb (under 100g on non training days) and intermittent fasting not only screwed up my metabolism but also screwed up my hormones. How do you fix it? Well not dieting is one thing. Even though you feel chubby right now, it's probably not a good idea to try to lose the "fluff" at the moment. It's highly possible that some of the fluff is just water weight from the increased cortisol in your body due to undereating (and intermittent fasting). I'm not suggesting you give up intermittent fasting if that's a way of eating that works for you, but you should definitely consider eliminating any kind of deficit. Eat at maintenance for 14 days, keep the carbs ups, the fats moderate, the protein moderate. You don't even have to stop training -although deloading (less sets) - would probably be a good idea since it sounds like your body is pretty taxed out at the moment anyway.
          I tried this once: a two week break simply eating to satiety, eating carbs at every meal. I believe the recommendation was around 150g/day at a minimum. I'm not going to do it because I didn't react well to it the first time. I actually have reasoning behind it:

          I'm tired of doing everything hardcore. I'm tired of huge deficits, huge refeeds and huge swings in calories. It just isn't working for me and it's freaking my body out. I want to be subtle. I've probably been averaging 1,800 calories a day for the past 6 months. That puts me at around 600 calories under maintenance. CHRONICALLY. Throwing my calories up to maintenance wound, simply put, be a 33% increase in calories at all times. I think my body will freak and pile on fat since it's getting hit by all this food at once.

          I want to do this gradually for a change. Doing a 1900/2500 split is going to be a huge increase for me, but I want to get back into eating fat slowly. Instead of rushing into the 100g range, I'm going to spend a week at the 70g range. I know I'm stable with carbohydrate because I've been fairly consistent with them doing refeeds 3 times a week, but I fear my body forgets what fat looks like. Rather than triple my fat intake overnight, I want to slide into it. I just had a big refeed and I feel ripped right now. Even after my very large lunch today, I didn't gain any weight...not even water weight after a PSTM. I'm kind of at a loss right now because my body is doing some weird things and I want to see what it does next. I have a bad habit of not sticking with things for the long run and I really want to do it this time.
          Don't put your trust in anyone on this forum, including me. You are the key to your own success.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by Forgotmylastusername View Post
            A less dramatic increase might be a good option. I went from about 100g of carbs at 2000 calories to about 600g of carbs at about 4000 calories for 5 days. That also included no exercise besides the light activity at work. It might be kind of risky for some people. Next time i'll probably take it to about 3000 calories at 70% carbs and remain fairly sedentary for the week. I'll probably do a journal post during it. I'm only a novice to all of this so I still have a lot of experimenting and learning to do. My goals are not to bulk or gain strength, just to remain lean and healthy as effortlessly as possible while enjoying good healthy primal food over 80% of the time.

            The biggest surprise to me after this splurge was how easily I shed fat afterwards (not just the water weight). It reminded me of how easily I originally lost when I first started started dieting.
            Right now I'm the leanest I have been since last year and it's been fairly easy.
            At the beginning of this year I was really struggling moving any weight no matter how strict I was eating. I was also becoming obsessive and developing a pretty bad relationship with food. I was also exercising and feeling really run down and fatigued, that was just before I started doing weekly refeeds which helped a lot. But not to the extent this latest 5 day diet break has.
            You're really speaking to me. I've become mildly orthorexic over the past few months, developing a more critical relationship with food. I'm lucky in a sense - I just have zero desire to eat things like cookies, cake, pastries, bread, pasta and the like. It just doesn't look appetizing to me. If I'm going to stuff myself, I'd rather have several pounds of sweet potatoes or a whole watermelon or a whole pineapple. But I still can relate to the overall message.

            It was probably easy to shed the fat for two reasons: you maintained a lower setpoint, and you probably put on brown fat. I can add and subtract 5 lbs with ease, but it's getting past that point that's the trouble. Now it's time to try something new.

            Speaking of something new, today was a refeed day. I haven't had more than 15g of fat on a whole refeed day in months. It felt so strange replacing protein calories with fat calories, especially on a refeed. But damn it, I came really close to hitting my macros perfectly and I'm happy I did it. Well, technically I had two coffees today with a little half and half in it, but I'm not counting that. Whatever.



            Oh yea, and I promised food porn right?



            I can't quit my satsumaimo fries. I want 10 lbs of them buried with me when the time comes.
            Don't put your trust in anyone on this forum, including me. You are the key to your own success.

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            • #36
              Originally posted by marcadav View Post
              Choco, if you think you may have skewed your metabolism, have you thought about getting blood work done to see where you stand?
              I think it's been around a year since my last battery of blood tests. I need to contact my insurance company because I want to get them done soon.
              Don't put your trust in anyone on this forum, including me. You are the key to your own success.

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              • #37
                Nice refeed! You're macros look perfect!

                I don't understand why you did low fat refeeds before.... Even Lyle says fat can be at least(but not more than) 50g on a refeed day.

                I hear you on extremes- I've fallen into that many times myself. To me the 1900/2500 split seems like flopping from one calorie extreme to another on a alternate day basis, but if it's an increase from what you were doing and will allow you the gradual calorie, fat and carb increase you want, then do what works for you I want you to be successful.

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by NDF View Post
                  Nice refeed! You're macros look perfect!

                  I don't understand why you did low fat refeeds before.... Even Lyle says fat can be at least(but not more than) 50g on a refeed day.

                  I hear you on extremes- I've fallen into that many times myself. To me the 1900/2500 split seems like flopping from one calorie extreme to another on a alternate day basis, but if it's an increase from what you were doing and will allow you the gradual calorie, fat and carb increase you want, then do what works for you I want you to be successful.
                  It's the mentality that "since you want fat low, even lower must be even better!" Truth be told, on lift days, I really enjoy eating lots of food, so keeping fats very low allows be a much greater food volume (removing 30g of fat allows 65-70g more carbs or protein). Maybe I could stand to shove less food volume down my throat. I guess I'll find out.

                  I don't think 1900/2500 is extreme at all. I'm not all that hungry on rest days, so it makes sense that I'd want more calories after I work out.
                  Don't put your trust in anyone on this forum, including me. You are the key to your own success.

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                  • #39
                    Following. Good luck!
                    Steph
                    My Primal Meanderings

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                    • #40
                      Just wanted to put in a good word for not counting anything too often. Most recent tweak was one huge fatty meal a day and a snack if I really want it (during my work week), and I'm still losing weight again. High-fat the whole time. Low carb a few days of the week, moderate carb toward the end while staying high-fat. On my days off, entirely ad-lib - big meals, small meals, even some snacking to keep my body on alert. Focusing heavily on protein, shooting for about a pound a day - the only thing I really count. Workouts? Ad-lib! Climb stuff, push-ups, chin-ups, sprint, lift heavy stuff. All simple, easy and do-able as a life-long, gentle way to maintain health. Refeeds? Sort of. On days where I know I've just gone all-out, I'll have a lot of sweet potatoes. With tons of tallow and coconut oil. That's about it. Still leaning out just fine. Nothing terribly specific or strict, no big plans to do this one day and that the next. Well, a few. But you have seen me post my eating schedule around here before. Zero tolerance for dairy, nuts once a week, no nightshades. Plenty of fish, organ meats, eggs, greens, etc. along with the usual fodder like GF ground beef. Occasional junk, like once every two weeks maybe a piece of pizza or some ice cream.

                      Anyway, best of luck on your new endeavor! Slow and steady wins the race. Try doing what you're doing for at least a few months.
                      Crohn's, doing SCD

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by ChocoTaco369 View Post
                        I have the most trouble with a week off. I have extra time and I feel lost without my rigid routine. I hope you're more relaxed than I am.
                        I don't like the sound of of that. See Nassim Taleb's Why I Walk essay:
                        http://www.fooledbyrandomness.com/whyIwalk.pdf

                        Humans are not suited to routine. At least not if we want to make progress and do things better. We are dynamic creatures. We respond dynamically to a highly variable environment. You probably need to be building log cabin with your own hands (or whatever) and not following a fitness routine. Repetition makes for fragility. If you are going to push your limit it should be dynamic objective.

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                        • #42
                          This thread has gone so fucking far off-topic it ain't funny.

                          Do your thing, choco. This ain't a fucking advice thread. We're here to see how you do and, via your n=1 experience, amend as desired. Rock the fuck on.
                          August 2010: 207 lb, 37" waist, 25+% BF | Currently: 177 lb, 33" waist, ~15% BF

                          I have a new site up and will soon be blogging at The Wayward Mind. (My journal is semi-retired at this point)

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                          • #43
                            keep 'er coming choco. i don't see how anything's been too off-topic thus far, btw, as another commentor indicated.

                            i totally identify with the orthorexia thing, and measuring and counting everything. last week i just decided to stop measuring or counting anything. it's been FUCKING LIBERATING. you know what the funny thing is? i pretty much eat the same anyway.

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Patrick View Post
                              This thread has gone so fucking far off-topic it ain't funny.

                              Do your thing, choco. This ain't a fucking advice thread. We're here to see how you do and, via your n=1 experience, amend as desired. Rock the fuck on.
                              Choco just...can't....stop giving advice, even though this thread is an open admission that the advice he's been giving on here for months (CICO, macros don't matter, etc.) didn't really work for him. It's kind of hilarious, I intend to just read and enjoy.
                              If you are new to the PB - please ignore ALL of this stuff, until you've read the book, or at least http://www.marksdailyapple.com/primal-blueprint-101/ and this (personal fave): http://www.archevore.com/get-started/

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by ChocoTaco369 View Post
                                You're really speaking to me. I've become mildly orthorexic over the past few months, developing a more critical relationship with food. I'm lucky in a sense - I just have zero desire to eat things like cookies, cake, pastries, bread, pasta and the like. It just doesn't look appetizing to me. If I'm going to stuff myself, I'd rather have several pounds of sweet potatoes or a whole watermelon or a whole pineapple. But I still can relate to the overall message.

                                It was probably easy to shed the fat for two reasons: you maintained a lower setpoint, and you probably put on brown fat. I can add and subtract 5 lbs with ease, but it's getting past that point that's the trouble. Now it's time to try something new.

                                Speaking of something new, today was a refeed day. I haven't had more than 15g of fat on a whole refeed day in months. It felt so strange replacing protein calories with fat calories, especially on a refeed. But damn it, I came really close to hitting my macros perfectly and I'm happy I did it. Well, technically I had two coffees today with a little half and half in it, but I'm not counting that. Whatever.
                                .
                                I know what you mean. I don't a strong desire for those types of foods either. I won't say I don't enjoy them because I really do If I eat them, but I'm just as happy with what people would generally consider a bland meal of boiled eggs and sweet potatoes with salt. I don't know where the "people can't binge on protein and fat" idea comes from because I can mindlessly stuff myself with anything at times.
                                But even when I was a child I would happily skip desserts. The only time I really manifested a sweet tooth was after months of VLC which I tried to distract using stevia. Not the best idea looking back, I probably should of been listening to the signs and eating some fruit or something.

                                I'll be checking this thread to see how things are working out because it seems like a pretty interesting experiment. I'm going to try the whole "stuff yourself with lots protein as soon as you wake up" idea soon to see how that works. I'm not a huge fan of breakfast anyway so I could imagine it might even turn me off food for the whole day.

                                The only tips I could really give you is maybe try boiling your potatoes instead of baking them. I noticed that I can easily eat 1000 calories of potato when they have been shriveled up in the oven, but it's a much harder task with boiled potatoes. Obviously not as tasty though. ps. I know you're trying to eat more I just thought I'd add that if you're having problems with satiety.


                                Originally posted by tfarny View Post
                                Choco just...can't....stop giving advice, even though this thread is an open admission that the advice he's been giving on here for months (CICO, macros don't matter, etc.) didn't really work for him. It's kind of hilarious, I intend to just read and enjoy.
                                That's a pretty shitty snickering comment tbh. The advice he has given has not only been mostly 100% correct, it's been given in good faith backed by his own honest experiences and has helped tonnes of people on this forum from developing unwarranted disordered eating patterns and ill health. Including myself and lots of others judging from his feedback comments. Not only that but he's honest enough to admit he wants to be proven wrong and is putting it out there for everyone to see.


                                Originally posted by jakey View Post
                                keep 'er coming choco. i don't see how anything's been too off-topic thus far, btw, as another commentor indicated.

                                i totally identify with the orthorexia thing, and measuring and counting everything. last week i just decided to stop measuring or counting anything. it's been FUCKING LIBERATING. you know what the funny thing is? i pretty much eat the same anyway.
                                Lol. Reminds me of when I used to count carbs by the gram. I still need to get past the mentally counting, tallying and measuring of foods as well though. Hopefully the "cram yourself with protein as soon as you wake" experiment I'm going to take on should put me off food altogether.
                                Last edited by Forgotmylastusername; 06-01-2012, 10:58 PM.

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