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    "Science is not belief but the will to find out." ~ Anonymous
    "Culture of the mind must be subservient to the heart." ~ Gandhi
    "The flogging will continue until morale improves." ~ Unknown

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    • Originally posted by Paleobird View Post
      Ya know, I'm seeing a lot of people who had said, "LC doesn't work for me, it makes me feel like crap" around this board who got taken in by the sweet potato pushers for a while but who now are coming back around and saying, "that doesn't work either. It tastes good but I can't lose any weight without starving". Now they're starting to give low carb another look and try to figure out if they ever really did it right in the first place or if maybe they were in the Attia "zone of misery", permanently on the border.
      I pop in here from time-to-time to see what you are doing on the ketosis thing, maybe get some tips. Your salmon dinner looks like the kind of stuff I try to make. I love such simple yet tasty food.

      I've been trying to return to a lower carb than I was for a while. I was only sort of taken in by the sweet potato brigade. My first time around on low carb I had a quarter of a sweet potato every day. But then I got to where I was eating one or two for lunch sometimes, thinking it was okay because other people were doing it and saying it had no bad effects.

      It seems harder this time around. I feel pretty light-headed lately, standing up and having everything go black for a moment. I've had a headache going on 4 days now. That's never happened before. I tested my blood pressure and it's the lowest I've ever had, but it might have been low the first time around.

      I spent the day yesterday, a hot one, drinking diet lemonade with lite salt in it. I'm all bloated and feel fat today, but at least my feet aren't swollen so maybe I don't have edema, just good old-fashioned weight gain. I think I can feel the arm cramps coming soon, which I had the first time I went low carb way back a year ago. I have to remember to go back to taking magnesium again. I had stopped taking all supplements for a while.

      I guess one thing I'm not doing is eating as much eggs or dairy or consciously as much fat as I did back then. I'm kind of just eating less than I did back then, but I keep getting hungry and then eating between meals, which is bad.

      And our dang avocados are misbehaving. They are drying up instead of getting ripe.

      Anyway, my hope is to enjoy that clarity and intense mental concentration again, be able to break that dependent feeling on food I seem to get on a carb-dependent diet, maybe re-start a new period of weight loss, but somehow I think that's never going to happen. The dream of having a totally normal body just won't die for me. Anyway, I'm trying but I think I'm just not quite doing it right at the moment.
      Female, 5'3", 50, Max squat: 202.5lbs. Max deadlift: 225 x 3.

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      • just checking in on your ketosis journey!
        Check out my blog on nature and nurture!
        http://thewoodsygal.com/

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        • Originally posted by sbhikes View Post
          I've been trying to return to a lower carb than I was for a while. I was only sort of taken in by the sweet potato brigade. My first time around on low carb I had a quarter of a sweet potato every day. But then I got to where I was eating one or two for lunch sometimes, thinking it was okay because other people were doing it and saying it had no bad effects.

          It seems harder this time around. I feel pretty light-headed lately, standing up and having everything go black for a moment. I've had a headache going on 4 days now. That's never happened before. I tested my blood pressure and it's the lowest I've ever had, but it might have been low the first time around.

          I spent the day yesterday, a hot one, drinking diet lemonade with lite salt in it. I'm all bloated and feel fat today, but at least my feet aren't swollen so maybe I don't have edema, just good old-fashioned weight gain. I think I can feel the arm cramps coming soon, which I had the first time I went low carb way back a year ago. I have to remember to go back to taking magnesium again. I had stopped taking all supplements for a while.

          I guess one thing I'm not doing is eating as much eggs or dairy or consciously as much fat as I did back then. I'm kind of just eating less than I did back then, but I keep getting hungry and then eating between meals, which is bad.

          And our dang avocados are misbehaving. They are drying up instead of getting ripe.

          Anyway, my hope is to enjoy that clarity and intense mental concentration again, be able to break that dependent feeling on food I seem to get on a carb-dependent diet, maybe re-start a new period of weight loss, but somehow I think that's never going to happen. The dream of having a totally normal body just won't die for me. Anyway, I'm trying but I think I'm just not quite doing it right at the moment.
          Ah, yes, the gospel of the sweet potato, the one true path. Seductive.

          Low BP can definitely give you the woozies when you stand up. Salt can help but you are putting that in your lemonade. I find Pelegrino water is a good way to get a balance of minerals that absorb readily. With sodium/magnesium/potassium it is all about the balance so supplementing can be tricky. You try to fix one thing and end up throwing another out of whack.

          Speaking of which, what kind of sweetener is in the "diet lemonade"? Some people get headaches and bloating from various artificial sweeteners. You might be causing the problem to get worse by trying to cure the dehydration caused by the fact that it is bloody hot.

          Compared to a lot of the country we are being total SoCal whiners about it being in the 80's. RitaRose is out there reading power meters in Las Vegas. Yikes.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by solstice View Post
            just checking in on your ketosis journey!
            Doing well, thanks. I am loving that Fat Bread from Free the Animal. A small slice of that with mascarpone cheese on it and I am good to go for the day. That stuff is DENSE.

            It's surprisingly difficult to really pack in enough fat in a day.

            I just ordered a whole lamb (cut in pieces of course) from my meat CSA. They are not going to have any more lamb until next spring so I'm stocking up.

            Comment


            • That bread looks beautiful! I dont have any macs...do you buy yours locally or order online?

              What does a random day of eating look like for you? Curious!

              Also, did you have any symptoms when starting into ketosis---lightheadedness, low blood sugar issues? Noticing any as you go along---breath? Body odor? The few times I ended up in ketosis I could def. smell it in my urine but also had the stinky breath and increased BO---didnt like those side effects.
              Check out my blog on nature and nurture!
              http://thewoodsygal.com/

              Comment


              • I started drinking the lemonade after having the headaches for 3 days. I figured I needed hydration and was having trouble drinking enough plain water. I figured I could disguise the salt in the lemonade. It's crystal light mostly, but I also just cut a couple limes in half and made that into limeade.
                Female, 5'3", 50, Max squat: 202.5lbs. Max deadlift: 225 x 3.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by sbhikes View Post
                  It seems harder this time around. I feel pretty light-headed lately, standing up and having everything go black for a moment. I've had a headache going on 4 days now. That's never happened before. I tested my blood pressure and it's the lowest I've ever had, but it might have been low the first time around.
                  My BP is normal, but today for the 1st time in a long time, I was light headed some, but mostly I was a wee bit sick/crampy feeling. It passed & I'm fine again. I fasted from my new post-workout very simple whey berry water smoothie designed to do nothing more than restore my depleted glycogen reserves after fasted weight lifting & lap swimming & accelerate my muscle building/repair. Then I came home & had a super fatty , super humungous coconut flakes, 4-5 heaping TBS coco oil, 3 lg eggs w/ 200mg omega-3 each, loads of fizzy kefir & some water. I'm doing loads of fat, tiny amts of berries in that smoothie, little veggies and even then mostly fermented ones. I suggest you up your fat ie your calories, lower the carbs & of course drinks LOADS of water. I may stop IF'ing during the day, as I'm losing fat while gaining muscle, so this is working, & I don't want/need to get dizzy again...One can overdo "it", as well as underdoing "it" of course

                  Originally posted by sbhikes View Post
                  I have to remember to go back to taking magnesium again. I had stopped taking all supplements for a while.
                  Originally posted by sbhikes View Post
                  I guess one thing I'm not doing is eating as much eggs or dairy or consciously as much fat as I did back then. I'm kind of just eating less than I did back then, but I keep getting hungry and then eating between meals, which is bad.
                  Dairy is optional(I indulge freely), but its my opinion that pastured eggs are as primal a food as any. Eggs never required Grok to track, hunt down, kill and haul back a carcass. All eggs involved was raiding someone's nest while they were absent & chowing down! Eggs & bugs are the most primal foods from our ancestral perspective & never required a deadly encounter w/ prey that fights back (wild boar anyone?). I've eaten some weird stuff, all kinds of bugs (even deep fried spiders), grasshoppers being my favorites. But most won't go there, given other protein options...
                  Originally posted by sbhikes View Post
                  Anyway, my hope is to enjoy that clarity and intense mental concentration again, be able to break that dependent feeling on food I seem to get on a carb-dependent diet, maybe re-start a new period of weight loss, but somehow I think that's never going to happen. The dream of having a totally normal body just won't die for me. Anyway, I'm trying but I think I'm just not quite doing it right at the moment.
                  Keep on keepin' on, sweetie. Don't ever let the dream die. You have done this before, & you can do this again!

                  Originally posted by solstice View Post
                  ...Also, did you have any symptoms when starting into ketosis---lightheadedness, low blood sugar issues? Noticing any as you go along---breath? Body odor? The few times I ended up in ketosis I could def. smell it in my urine but also had the stinky breath and increased BO---didnt like those side effects.
                  For me, in the beginning, looking back on it (also Paleobird clued me in about this), I was likely more having carb flu than truly in ketosis~ not fun. Yes, there was a metallic taste in my mouth, breath was a little stinky. All that came & went, & subsequent ketosis attempts/successes I've not had those symptoms return. I almost never have BO, even though I bathe less than the average person(I do swim almost daily). As Paleobird said in her previous post, it can be difficult to get enough fat in a full day's menus to stay in ketosis, hitting/exceeding 60% can be challenging some days. However, true ketosis is fun! I just have to keep eating & only I.F. from dinner to breakfast or maybe to lunch if I skip breakfast. But skipping meals mid-day is tricky for me during this ketosis, as I'm exercising a LOT more than in the past decade, lifting LOTS more than since before year 2000 before my motorbike injuries. The past 2 summers I did intense mountain biking(I miss that!) back in Northern Calif, Marin Co., my home (& the birthplace of the 1st mtn bikes). * (And hot tubs too!
                  Last edited by Betorq; 08-20-2012, 07:24 PM.
                  "Science is not belief but the will to find out." ~ Anonymous
                  "Culture of the mind must be subservient to the heart." ~ Gandhi
                  "The flogging will continue until morale improves." ~ Unknown

                  Comment


                  • I think the thing that is tough about primal in general is how it is so easily tailored to the individuals who utilize it.

                    It's never absolute one way or another. The VLC way is just as much of a siren song as the sweet potato brigade. Depending upon the person, one may or may not work.

                    I did a trip VLC for about 3 weeks before finally giving up. Why? Fact is, I couldn't get through the brain fog and the falling over (as in, literally falling over). It just wasn't working, though I thought it might balance out (carb flu?) after a bit.

                    Then, for a time, I was having rice or sweet potato 1x week or so, and when I was super active (living in the city and such) that was fine. But then -- over the past 6 months or so -- that hasn't been fine. I dropped back to 1x a month or so for those things (you might say "as a treat"), and then I started to follow the carbs again to around 80 g/day (which is technically low carb), and everything went back to normal (body composition wise).

                    So, for me, it's basic primal blueprint. I eat between 80 and 100 g of carbs per day, only two pieces of fruit (max), the rest veggies, egg, and meat. I use olive oil and butter too. I rarely eat nuts. I have chocolate occasionally (not that often, honestly). And it works.

                    It's not ketosis/VLC. It's also not full on in carb-land. But there are times when I'll ahve some sweet potato fries and then basically no other carbs that day to keep the count in check (ie, that 80-100).

                    But, i'm also not that special. I don't have any particular special needs, you know?

                    And when I become more active again (in 6 weeks, I'll be free all afternoon from 3 onwards, wherein we plan on doing our parkour, hiking, and other adventures), I might go back to more carbs (closer to 100-120g), but then I may not. Who knows? I never know.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by solstice View Post
                      That bread looks beautiful! I dont have any macs...do you buy yours locally or order online?

                      What does a random day of eating look like for you? Curious!

                      Also, did you have any symptoms when starting into ketosis---lightheadedness, low blood sugar issues? Noticing any as you go along---breath? Body odor? The few times I ended up in ketosis I could def. smell it in my urine but also had the stinky breath and increased BO---didnt like those side effects.
                      Mac nuts come from the bulk bins at the Sprouts market. Don't know if you have those back east.
                      Random day for me. Get up 8ish, decaf coffee or rooibos hot or iced depending on the season. Small fatty lunch e.g. one of my tupper cups of pate or a slice of fatbread with mascarpone. Dinner with Dad usually meat or seafood with salad and/or low carb veggies. I don't eat pork or poultry unless I'm being a gracious guest in someone's home. Pork exception is wild boar meat. Poultry exception is game birds such as goose or duck.

                      I'm putting butter, coconut oil and cream on/in a lot of things lately, making guacamole with sour cream, eating lots of avocados, eating fatty cheeses such as brie, mascarpone, camembert, etc.

                      I had the keto breath (metallic taste) when I first went low carb but that went away in a few days. Nothing else has bugged me.

                      Originally posted by sbhikes View Post
                      I started drinking the lemonade after having the headaches for 3 days. I figured I needed hydration and was having trouble drinking enough plain water. I figured I could disguise the salt in the lemonade. It's crystal light mostly, but I also just cut a couple limes in half and made that into limeade.
                      Hydration is good. How about just some soda water with lime or lemon?

                      Originally posted by zoebird View Post
                      I think the thing that is tough about primal in general is how it is so easily tailored to the individuals who utilize it.

                      It's never absolute one way or another. The VLC way is just as much of a siren song as the sweet potato brigade. Depending upon the person, one may or may not work.

                      I did a trip VLC for about 3 weeks before finally giving up. Why? Fact is, I couldn't get through the brain fog and the falling over (as in, literally falling over). It just wasn't working, though I thought it might balance out (carb flu?) after a bit.

                      Then, for a time, I was having rice or sweet potato 1x week or so, and when I was super active (living in the city and such) that was fine. But then -- over the past 6 months or so -- that hasn't been fine. I dropped back to 1x a month or so for those things (you might say "as a treat"), and then I started to follow the carbs again to around 80 g/day (which is technically low carb), and everything went back to normal (body composition wise).

                      So, for me, it's basic primal blueprint. I eat between 80 and 100 g of carbs per day, only two pieces of fruit (max), the rest veggies, egg, and meat. I use olive oil and butter too. I rarely eat nuts. I have chocolate occasionally (not that often, honestly). And it works.

                      It's not ketosis/VLC. It's also not full on in carb-land. But there are times when I'll ahve some sweet potato fries and then basically no other carbs that day to keep the count in check (ie, that 80-100).

                      But, i'm also not that special. I don't have any particular special needs, you know?


                      And when I become more active again (in 6 weeks, I'll be free all afternoon from 3 onwards, wherein we plan on doing our parkour, hiking, and other adventures), I might go back to more carbs (closer to 100-120g), but then I may not. Who knows? I never know.
                      But you are and do. You are extremely lean and have a job that requires what most normal people think of as an amazing amount of exertion. I don't doubt that you wouldn't do well on vlc. It's good that you have found your sweet spot and continue to adjust as needed.
                      It's the middle aged overweight ladies who got talked into eating lots of sweet potatoes because Choco has such purty abs that I think are starting to realize, maybe this isn't for me.
                      Last edited by Paleobird; 08-20-2012, 09:44 PM.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Betorq View Post
                        My BP is normal, but today for the 1st time in a long time, I was light headed some, but mostly I was a wee bit sick/crampy feeling. It passed & I'm fine again.

                        Dairy is optional(I indulge freely), but its my opinion that pastured eggs are as primal a food as any. Eggs never required Grok to track, hunt down, kill and haul back a carcass. All eggs involved was raiding someone's nest while they were absent & chowing down!

                        60% can be challenging some days. However, true ketosis is fun! * (And hot tubs too!
                        My BP is low but good, 95/65 ish. I haven't had any wooziness except when I let myself get dehydrated on a hot day.
                        I couldn't do this without dairy. Peter over at Hyperlipid actually eats egg yolks only throwing out the egg whites because they have too much protein while most of the fat is in the yolk.

                        I don't have a hot tub but I have an indoor jacuzzi........

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                        • Caballeros y Damas, este noche a la Cantina Birdnest, tenemos el especialidad de la casa, ensalada de tacos.

                          (Sounds better than taco salad with a blop of sour cream in the middle. Secretly a recycling of the leftover meatballs I made for my party Saturday night. Crumble up with salsa, heat crumbles in micro. Presto! Dinner in ten minutes.) Homegrown tomatoes.

                          Sorry Jac, avocados. Again. We just bathe in the stuff here in SoCal in the summertime.

                          Photo on 2012-08-20 at 18.02.jpg

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                          • Yeah, that's what I mean.

                            It's like, choco (or whomever) goes "this is what works for me!" with this assumption that "therefore YOU should do it!"

                            I simply try to say "this is what I do, and this is what happened for me, btu I am this, that, and the other." Like, I am 36, mom of only one, does the yoga thing daily, does walk at least 40 minutes a day whatever whatever. . . and therefore not "special" like someone with IBS, or peri/post menopausal, or with other autoimmune thing, or with thyroid thing, or whatever.

                            So, to say "if you do it like me -- person who is post menopausal with IBS and works a desk job and is overweight -- then you'll be like me!"

                            Instead, we really do need to n-1 and tailor and see what works. Don't assume that *my way* works, but also don't assume that another person's way is going to work either. Feel free to give anything and everything a try (if you want), or just go with people who are "more like you" and stick with that.

                            I mean, if i were a person who had seizures or had also come off of cancer treatment, id' be like "what was paleobird's protocol?" And if i were more like what Jac's going through, I'd be on that protocol and see what is what, you know? Just see what works.

                            And if you happen to be like me -- which is basically fit, mostly active, and just working on this, that, or the other small goals like "wanting to have family dinners that everyone can eat" -- then, yeah, totally just do it my way.

                            I think i'm just looking for people to keep it simple at first, then fine tune as they go along based on the information that makes sense to them in light of their own circumstances, rather than going "Yes! sweet potatoes are the One True Way!" or "Yes, it must be VLC!" KWIM?

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by zoebird View Post
                              Yeah, that's what I mean.

                              It's like, choco (or whomever) goes "this is what works for me!" with this assumption that "therefore YOU should do it!"

                              I simply try to say "this is what I do, and this is what happened for me, btu I am this, that, and the other." Like, I am 36, mom of only one, does the yoga thing daily, does walk at least 40 minutes a day whatever whatever. . . and therefore not "special" like someone with IBS, or peri/post menopausal, or with other autoimmune thing, or with thyroid thing, or whatever.

                              So, to say "if you do it like me -- person who is post menopausal with IBS and works a desk job and is overweight -- then you'll be like me!"

                              Instead, we really do need to n-1 and tailor and see what works. Don't assume that *my way* works, but also don't assume that another person's way is going to work either. Feel free to give anything and everything a try (if you want), or just go with people who are "more like you" and stick with that.

                              I mean, if i were a person who had seizures or had also come off of cancer treatment, id' be like "what was paleobird's protocol?" And if i were more like what Jac's going through, I'd be on that protocol and see what is what, you know? Just see what works.

                              And if you happen to be like me -- which is basically fit, mostly active, and just working on this, that, or the other small goals like "wanting to have family dinners that everyone can eat" -- then, yeah, totally just do it my way.

                              I think i'm just looking for people to keep it simple at first, then fine tune as they go along based on the information that makes sense to them in light of their own circumstances, rather than going "Yes! sweet potatoes are the One True Way!" or "Yes, it must be VLC!" KWIM?
                              Very true. Or bouncing back and forth from one extreme thing to the other and never really giving anything a chance to work which is what I see a lot of people doing.

                              Comment


                              • Apparently epilepsy and ketosis was a subject at this year's AHS 2012. Dr. Elizabeth Thiele did a 20 minute presentation. Probably nothing you haven't heard before, but still -- interesting!
                                Steph
                                My Primal Meanderings

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