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  • I think there are as many scientifically defensible positions as there are scientists. The downfall of a lot of the science is that the studies have been conducted on young studs like Choco, by, for, and about young guys.

    I generally end up at 70/25/5 f/p/c without really trying to hit that, it just comes out that way.

    Lately I have been looking into the ideas in the carnivorous diet WOE. Some of them are pretty far off the deep end, but there are some more moderate voices that are very interesting. I am finding that my digestive system is thanking me for backing off on the huge ass salads etc. The moderate position of carnivorousness is that the diet be animal product centered but they do not say you are going straight to dietary hell for having some seaweed salad and sushi. They just insist that any plant matter included "pull its weight" in terms of adding enough value to the diet. Not just eating something at the urging of the maternal voice in your head saying, "Eat your vegetables. They're good for you."

    It's interesting stuff. Has anyone else dabbled in this?

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    • I haven't dabbled in it, but I can put out what's been happening around these parts.

      Since we started IFing, both Dh and I are down about 100-200 cals/day apiece. Both of us took this out of our carbs, largely, and also our carbs are highly nutritious overall (and diverse/seasonal). What we both noticed is that we consume less fruit, foremost, and then from there, we consume less veg. Our meat/eggs/butter/fats have stayed constant.

      Which would push me more towards 50F/30P/25C because the calorie restriction puts us that way.

      It's in no way "VLC." Definitely getting above 50g per day (but then, I'm not "net" carb counting, so it may be VLC for all I can figure), and somedays up to 100g (more likely when I'm closer to menses).

      I would particularly think that because of the specific needs and how keto-diets help with that, I don't think it would be a problem to decrease the amount of veg you are eating down to next to nil, really. I mean, I think if you did eat really high quality stuff -- you know, what interests your palate and is beautiful and tasty, then it's great.

      I would also imagine that if you used spices -- used whole herbs, etc to make sauces -- you'd get a lot of nutrients as well. Things like harrissa (sp?), and different pestos and the like. Probably very yum. And, you'd still get the nutrients because those things are really nutritionally rich.

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      • Originally posted by Paleobird View Post
        Ya. I think a lot of people stopped reading when they got to the word "bacon". The calorie tracking part is not till chapter eight. They had put down the book and gone to the kitchen to fry up a pound of bacon humming, "Happy Day Are Here Again" and never got back around to reading the rest.
        LOL. Truth.
        I have the simplest tastes. I am always satisfied with the best.

        Oscar Wilde

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        • I think the question of one's tendencies is interesting. Left to my own tastes, I will tend toward lots of vegetables and fruit, but I don't tend to do a lot of salad except in late spring and summer. Otherwise I really like brassicas and the really dark greens like chard, kale, and beet greens, and I love my root vegetables. I also like fruit a lot. But I tend not to want a lot of really fatty stuff--I like fat, don't get me wrong, but too much and I feel cloyed by it--and I don't like actual sweets all that much.

          I haven't actually tracked macros in a while, but I think my tendency is toward a fairly even 30/30/30 with a flexible 10% (usually that ends up as fat I think because it's more calorically dense, and also I love avocado when I can get it). Also, I don't have meat at every meal, preferring eggs a lot of times.

          I wonder if once we clean up our diets, get away from processed foods, and establish how much we need, then do we just eventually fall into a rhythm that keeps us at a fairly steady weight? I'm curious because it seems like the long-time primal folks develop a style that works for them and can do it without much thought.

          As for carnivorous, I don't think I'd feel happy on it. I really like my plant matter far too much. I don't eat it because I feel obligated--I eat it because for me, I actually crave certain plant foods and feel happier when I'm including them.
          “If I didn't define myself for myself, I would be crunched into other people's fantasies for me and eaten alive.” --Audre Lorde

          Owly's Journal

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          • same, owly.

            I dno't think I could go to completely meat/eggs with veg/fruit as a sauce/side dish. I think it can be done healthfully, but I love my produce too much. I'd only go there if I felt it was really worth it. Giving up meat/dairy and grains/beans was easy, though, comparatively. I'm not sure I could do without fruit/veg! Probably would be ok, though.

            I dont' think i'm at 30/30/30 -- thought I thought I was heading that way. Seems i've just regulated out again to where I was. so weird.

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            • Maybe we should start a thread on December 31st..."Newbies: First, Do Primal by the Book" Any Volunteers to take the fall?

              My first solid week on the Eat Moar Fat protocol resulted is bringing my binges to a dead stop and a 10 lb weightloss. So 70/25/5 works for me.
              Primal since 9/24/2010
              "Our greatest foes, and whom we must chiefly combat, are within." Miguel de Cervantes

              Created by MyFitnessPal.com - Free Weight Loss Tools
              MFP username: MDAPebbles67

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              • Originally posted by zoebird View Post
                We consume less fruit, foremost, and then from there, we consume less veg. Our meat/eggs/butter/fats have stayed constant.

                I would also imagine that if you used spices -- used whole herbs, etc to make sauces -- you'd get a lot of nutrients as well. Things like harrissa (sp?), and different pestos and the like. Probably very yum. And, you'd still get the nutrients because those things are really nutritionally rich.
                Yes, it is not something I'm forcing either. It just seems like a natural progression. And vegetable matter as a condiment to the meat makes a good image. Things like mushrooms on my steak and salsa in my meatloaf.

                Originally posted by Owly View Post
                I think the question of one's tendencies is interesting. Left to my own tastes, I will tend toward lots of vegetables and fruit, but I don't tend to do a lot of salad except in late spring and summer. Otherwise I really like brassicas and the really dark greens like chard, kale, and beet greens, and I love my root vegetables. I also like fruit a lot. But I tend not to want a lot of really fatty stuff--I like fat, don't get me wrong, but too much and I feel cloyed by it--and I don't like actual sweets all that much.

                I wonder if once we clean up our diets, get away from processed foods, and establish how much we need, then do we just eventually fall into a rhythm that keeps us at a fairly steady weight? I'm curious because it seems like the long-time primal folks develop a style that works for them and can do it without much thought.

                As for carnivorous, I don't think I'd feel happy on it. I really like my plant matter far too much. I don't eat it because I feel obligated--I eat it because for me, I actually crave certain plant foods and feel happier when I'm including them.
                I think this is a really important point, Owly. Once all that other noise is out of the way, you can really "listen to your body".

                I really used to like my vegetation too, or at least I thought I did. But I really do think there is an element of social conditioning involved particularly for health conscious people here. We have been told all our lives how great veggies are for us. We are supposed to love that healthy wholesome crunch of a broccoli stalk dunked in yogurt dip. But is it really the taste of the broccoli wee love or is the veg just a dip delivery device?

                The carnivorous folks are making the same argument against large amount of veg as Primal does against grains. Too much fiber that our non-gorilla hind guts don't need, too nutrient sparse, plus all plants have anti-nutrients not just grains. For example the oxalates in spinach that bind to and prevent the absorption of calcium.

                Originally posted by zoebird View Post
                I dno't think I could go to completely meat/eggs with veg/fruit as a sauce/side dish. I think it can be done healthfully, but I love my produce too much. I'd only go there if I felt it was really worth it. Giving up meat/dairy and grains/beans was easy, though, comparatively. I'm not sure I could do without fruit/veg! Probably would be ok, though.
                I wouldn't really feel like I was "giving up" much. Carnivorousness seems to be the natural progression for me from health food style CW to low carb to Primal to ketosis to an animal centered diet.

                Originally posted by Pebbles67 View Post
                My first solid week on the Eat Moar Fat protocol resulted is bringing my binges to a dead stop and a 10 lb weightloss. So 70/25/5 works for me.
                Yay Paula! Well done. Yes, I think your body tells you if this is right for you or not. I really think that losing the binge urges is more impressive than the pounds. That means your whole system is stabilizing and that this could be very sustainable for you.

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                • I prefer my spinach and other greens cooked. But I don't put much on any of them. I've always liked broccoli and cauliflower as is, with no need for dips or cheese sauce or whatever to make them appealing. I like my asparagus steamed or roasted with a little olive oil and sea salt, maybe with a squeeze of lemon. I can devour a huge bowl of kale chips with no seasonings except olive oil and a little salt. The flavours I like in my green things come from the plants themselves. But I think it's interesting that I like most of them cooked more than raw and wonder if that's partly because cooking alters the fibre and breaks down the oxalates.

                  The things I like raw are in the fruit family--tomatoes, cucumbers, peppers, and so on. Or I like very young, tender greens raw when they are fresh. But except in summer when I want cold things, I really prefer my leafy things cooked. However, I seriously crave plants, so I don't think I'd be happy without lots of them on the table.

                  In contrast to Pebbles, I didn't lose most of my weight successfully until I put more plant food back in my diet. For me, this confirms the idea that some of us are more plant-eating types than others, and that our attention needs to be on our individual signals and not whatever the latest fashion around here dictates as the way Primal Must Be Done.

                  I agree, we need the "Newbies" thread, but if I started it I'd be tempted to call it "Newbies: RTFM". This is probably why I am not the person who should start the thread.
                  “If I didn't define myself for myself, I would be crunched into other people's fantasies for me and eaten alive.” --Audre Lorde

                  Owly's Journal

                  Comment


                  • As a good cook, I can make just about anything taste good but the question I am asking myself about veggies is this: If this item were raw and had no seasonings, sauces, dips, involved, would I still like it? If so, then I am keeping that veggie in the mix. I'm sure everyone's tastes are different on this but some of the things that actually appeal to me in their un "dressed up" form are onions, garlic, red and yellow bell peppers, mushrooms, asparagus, snow peas, and seaweeds. I'm also never giving up the high fat plants such as avocados, coconut and mac nuts. I honestly don't like potatoes. If they are slathered in butter, sour cream and chives, sure then they are yummy. If I did that potato diet in the strict way, I would starve to death.

                    The carnivorous premise is that veggies are something we can eat but that they were always the "plan B" if the hunt didn't go well, something we could use too fill our stomachs and get by on but not optimal food. I'm not saying I completely buy this but I find it interesting and my natural preferences seem to be leading me there as well.

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                    • I understand what you mean. I feel like if it's easy for you to give up, then go ahead and give it up, you know?

                      Like, as a kid, I hardly ever ate "carbs" by which I mean bread, pasta, potatoes even (potatoes lead to binges). I was even not that into sweets -- cakes, cookies, candy. Compared to my family and most of my friends, i was a natural "health nut." I loved eggs (love love love eggs in all ways except raw), veggies and fruit. I would eat a lot of things plain -- hard boiled eggs, for example, and of course fruit as-is, and then most of my veggies lightly steamed, raw, or roasted, often with nothing on them save some oil and salt. I use butter to fry my eggs, but not much else.

                      I'm no big fan of fish (must have a sauce or seasoning), but steak and chicken (and related critters), I'll eat without any seasoning at all. Salt maybe, you know?

                      In terms of the carnivorous premise, it's basically the same premise as WAPF in terms of ancestral dieting, there fruit/veg were seasonal, condiments in off seasons (from preserving methods), or as seasonings to foods. Though, there was also some light agriculture in those communities.

                      I think that -- in particular with your keto needs for the neurological function -- I see every benefit in at least looking at it seriously and going that direction as it feels right, you know? I think dragonfly was nearly there herself!

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                      • Right. I don't understand why some people talk about "giving up" grains and sugar as being so HARD. I suppose it is for some people but I never had a sweet tooth and I only ate those "healthywholegrains" because they were supposed to be good for me. Giving that up was like putting down a heavy backpack.

                        I'm using up the veggies I have around the fridge and freezer plus the stuff in the pantry like sauerkraut. (I'm on a zero buying policy for a while in preparation for moving. Too many jars of things get bought and put on a pantry shelf and forgotten. It's surprising how long one can "forage" in the kitchen without going to the store.)

                        So, once I use up my stash, I may give the carnivorous plan a try.

                        I adore all kinds of seafood in fact I think I could be pescatarian if I had to. I also like a good steak and rack of lamb. Good to have options. If I never eat kale again, I think it may be too soon. I can MAKE kale taste good with lots of onions, garlic, spices and sour cream, but, in its natural state, it seems like horse fodder to me.

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                        • I love cavolo nero, which is a kind of kale, but that's the only one I love. And man, do I love it. LOL unfortunately, it's seriously seasonal here -- which means I have to wait until winter!

                          Clearing the pantry is a good idea -- particularly before a move! then giving it a try to see what works. Definitely would make things simpler. Heck, you could probably go out and fish/forage on your own even.

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                          • I may break down and go to the store for some eggs but, until then I am working on expanding my breakfast foods repertoire. Tinned octopus with olive tapenade anyone?

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                            • I really think I have hit on my issue with the info from the eat moar fat thread. I am eating too much protein and that is why my weight loss is basically stalled. And to think, I was thinking maybe I wasn't eating enough veggies. I eat no fruit, and don't crave veggies much. I don't really crave much of anything. So I am reducing my protein, keeping my fat and carb intake steady and will see how that does.

                              One thing I have noticed is twinges of nausea. Especially in the morning, which has been leading me away from eating breakfast. I think that is one of the ketosis side effects. I have taken 2 preggo tests and it is not that. But to be honest, I was sick all the time in one way or another from CW/SAD Diet, so I'll live if it makes me healthier and less fat.

                              Thanks to all of you ladies for leading the way.
                              My journal: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread70684.html

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Paleobird View Post
                                Tinned octopus with olive tapenade anyone?
                                Sounds lovely, though I have to admit I didn't know octopus came in tins. Now I have to look for them. I rock squid, but have never cooked up octopus that didn't end up with the consistency of pickled pig feet. (ew)

                                When I was a baby, if my mom left my high chair too close to the kitchen table, I'd grab the stick of butter and start gnawing on it. She said I smiled and laughed when I did it so she didn't have the heart to take it away too fast. As a child, (though I was basically an angel ) I adamently resisted eating veggies until my mom covered them in something fatty. Cheese, butter, even sauteed in olive oil and bread crumbs (she did green beans that way).

                                So, now I indulge my inner child/baby. I agree with all your veggie choices, Paleobird, except I do like potatoes and other roots and squash-family type stuff. And kale, if I didn't know better, I'd think it was Mother Nature's way of saying, "See, even I make mistakes."

                                More importantly, I only recently learned of your loss and wanted to extend my sincere condolences.
                                "Right is right, even if no one is doing it; wrong is wrong, even if everyone is doing it." - St. Augustine

                                B*tch-lite

                                Who says back fat is a bad thing? Maybe on a hairy guy at the beach, but not on a crab.

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