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  • Some people claim IF puts you in ketosis. So, does my dd meal kick me out or leave me in? I need a meter...
    -- Ruth

    Comment


    • I am avoiding using the meter because my FBS is not in line. I would assume an IF would help you stay in.
      Karin


      Created by MyFitnessPal.com - Free Calorie Counter

      What am I doing? Depends on the day.

      Comment


      • I have avoided using the meter because my FBS is not in line either. I will re-think this when I get back and really start in on April 1st.

        I feel like I am dipping in and out of NK, because of the taste in my mouth.

        I think generally lower calories help put you into NK, but not sure.

        Ruth, do you have the % that go with the grams for the days that you did all those calculations? Just trying to discern a pattern.
        Chris
        "Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass. It is about learning to dance in the rain."
        Unknown

        My journal: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread36279.html

        My "Program": doing my version of a 4:3 - 3 day fast diet with real food every day, with a little twist of anti-inflammatory mixed in.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by RMS123 View Post
          . I expected that my DDs would be 2 or great and my UDs lower. It's actually the reverse.
          Itís to be expected thst your DD numbers would be lower because your protein & carbs should be the same as for an UD but you will be using a lot less fat to get the calories right

          Originally posted by RMS123 View Post
          . So what does this tell me (if anything)? Do I fix protein the same each day or do I lower protein on DDs? Interestingly, higher protein on UDs (around 70 g) seems to have a fine ratio...
          Yes the protein/carb quantity is the most important thing for NK. The fat is just to make up the calories (having said this I believe the fat needs to be high in the first few weeks as the body learns to switch to using ketones. But when you are keto adapted the fat is just for satiety).

          As an example, When I plugged by numbers into JUDDD yesterday, my DD cals are 354 cals & my UD would be 1062 cals. My Pg = 55 & Cg=6. This would give me Fg=12.2 on a DD & Fg=90.8 on an UD.

          If I feed these into the KR I get:

          KRUD = (90.9*0.9+55*0.46)/(6+55*0.58+90.9*0.1) = 2.27
          KRDD = (12.2*0.9+55*0.46)/(6+55*0.58+12.2*0.1) = 0.92

          so I would tweak my DD by excluding the carbs giving me Fg = 14.8.

          This would give me KRDD = (14.8*0.9+55*0.46)/(55*0.58+14.8*0.1) = 1.15

          NB: As well as checking my daily macros give me a KR>2 I also check my meals have a KR>1.5. See the lengths I have to go through to ensure I am in KR because I donít have a monitor! So on my DD my preferred menu would be 155g chicken breast with 1 tbsp Mayo x2 which has a KR of 1.2
          Last edited by Ddraig Goch; 03-26-2013, 02:31 PM. Reason: NB

          Comment


          • Re IF & NK. I believe the best way to get into NK is the correct protein/carb & lots of fat to enable the body to open up the fat burning pathway. Over time the protein needs to be reduced slightly as the brain switches to ketones. Over time, as the body gets used to oxidising body fat the dietary fat can be reduced i.e. suppose you start off eating 83% fat & maintain weight. Suppose after a couple of months you are in steady NK & you reduce dietary fat by 20% to 65%. You will still be burning 85% fat, it’s just that the 20% deficit will come from body fat. And because you have maintained the correct protein level the whole time, you will not lose any muscle as you restrict calories.

            Now for IF. If you restrict calories enough your body will be forced to use body tissue for fuel (most especially to feed the brain)., If you are not already keto adapted, it will cannibalise muscle first as it finds it easier to oxidise muscle than body fat. Eventually it will get to the fat but only after you have lost muscle first & you will have none of the AS advantages of being keto adapted & your brain will not have switched to ketones so you will get brain fog.

            But if you are keto adapted first, providing you keep your protein/carb macros steady (going too low on protein will affect muscle growth & regeneration) whilst you are fasting, you will continue to burn body fat, your brain will remain energised & AS will make the fast less painful.

            I have two problems with JUDDD which I have yet to resolve.

            1) Lets say your TDEE is 2000 cals. On a DD you ingest 500 cals. Because you are in steady KR the body takes the deficit 1500 cals from its fat stores. On a UD you ingest 2500 cals. But your body only need 2000 cals, so not only does it not burn any body fat, it stores the remaining 500 cals of dietary fat. So over the 2 days you have actually used 1000 cals of body fat & reminded the body how to store fat.

            Whereas if you ingest 1500 cals each day ([500+2500]/2) the body will burn 500 cals of body fat daily to make up the deficit,thus remaining in a steady fat burning state over the 2 days without replenishing fat stores.

            (NB: Apparently fat cells die off naturally & will not be regenerated if the body thinks it has no use for them. Constantly adding a bit of body fat every other day is less likely to make that happen)

            2) To get the body into true fasting mode takes 8 hrs after the last meal. If you practise a daily fast of 16 hrs with an 8hr eating window you get 8hrs of true fat burning & all the health benefits of a fast for an 8 hrs period daily.

            Suppose your last meal on an UD is 8pm & you start your DD with a BPC at 7am then eat a meal at lunch & finish with another BPC in the evening at 8pm. Then on next UP eat breakfast at 8am. You will have actually have ‘fasted’ for only a total of 6hrs over the 2 days. Dropping cals id not enough, you have to actually do the fast bit as well

            NB: The above is an illustration only, I’m not saying any of you actually do this & I realize the examples are simplified somewhat. I’m just providing some food for thought and an explanation of why I’m not doing it yet.

            PS: I get your idea from earlier about the body liking a steady state & the need to mix things up a bit. You nearly had me convinced to start there & then but its all a learning curve & I want to learn how my body reacts to just fluctuating within a 100-150 cal range first.
            Last edited by Ddraig Goch; 03-26-2013, 03:56 PM. Reason: clarification

            Comment


            • If I am not mistaken, I believe the point of your ud is to eat to your TDEE. In your example you have ingestion on ud over the TDEE.

              I believe that your current experiment is working for you, if that is the case, I believe you would be ill advised to tweak it.
              Chris
              "Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass. It is about learning to dance in the rain."
              Unknown

              My journal: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread36279.html

              My "Program": doing my version of a 4:3 - 3 day fast diet with real food every day, with a little twist of anti-inflammatory mixed in.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by demuralist View Post
                I have avoided using the meter because my FBS is not in line either.
                Do you think the FBS result is because of the daily fluctuations in calories?

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Ddraig Goch View Post
                  Do you think the FBS result is because of the daily fluctuations in calories?
                  No, my FBS was not in line before I started to do the juddd, I have actually only been dabbling in the juddd for a few days or so, and will not actually be doing it until April 1st. I had one result that was high (101 I think) and the rest hovered around 95. It has been suggested that lower FBS correlate to higher blood ketones so I was saving the ketone sticks till the FBS went lower. BUT, I am pretty sure that when I start on April 1 I will just go ahead and do one full month of juddd and test ketones every morning.

                  Also, reading the "sweet geek" blog, she mentions that higher ketones did not, for her, equate to weight loss. Interesting stuff.
                  Chris
                  "Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass. It is about learning to dance in the rain."
                  Unknown

                  My journal: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread36279.html

                  My "Program": doing my version of a 4:3 - 3 day fast diet with real food every day, with a little twist of anti-inflammatory mixed in.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by demuralist View Post
                    If I am not mistaken, I believe the point of your ud is to eat to your TDEE. In your example you have ingestion on ud over the TDEE.

                    I believe that your current experiment is working for you, if that is the case, I believe you would be ill advised to tweak it.

                    Using the JUDDD calculator my UD comes in 100cals over my TDEE. However the point I was trying to make is that you are unlikely to burn body fat on a UD.

                    As for my n=1. It is NOT working for me. I am just bouncing around in one spot. However, having never tracked weight on a daily basis before I learning how my body works so have resigned myself to staying on track for the next 4 weeks whatever happens. Also I work outside & its too cold here to stick to 350cals. But I confess if you & RMS123 continue to get great results I will probably try it for 3 months from May. I just like to work through the logic first. I must be a geek as I find it all fascinating lol.

                    That is why I love Pebbles for starting the EMF thread & so introducing me to you all. We can all see how each others n=1 is working & learn so much.

                    PS I am SO looking forward to you tracking blood ketones whilst doing JUDDD. It will enable you to put all the theory to the test

                    Comment


                    • Lots of good discussion here. I'll probably respond throughout the day.

                      Weight 159.2. Up 1 pound from my last DD. Surprising in some respects (I've had a great last 2 days), but not others. This is week 3, which is usually a crazy week for weight loss and ovulation, which does strange stuff as well.

                      Sleep is...better. I'm now waking up around 4 am (which is really better than 3 am). To break my 3 am habit, I've had to no go to the bathroom before bed, so that I wake up earlier (when it's easier for me to fall back asleep). If I can get it back to 5 am, I'll be happy.

                      FBS - 67.

                      Will attempt to figure out this google docs thing today if I can get back on the computer.
                      -- Ruth

                      Comment


                      • wow, FBS of 67, fantastic!

                        my dd weight is up as well. But to be fair I have yet to have a dd as prescribed by the protocol. I will write about it in my journal, but I feel like the things I am learning will serve me well when I get serious about this next week.
                        Chris
                        "Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass. It is about learning to dance in the rain."
                        Unknown

                        My journal: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread36279.html

                        My "Program": doing my version of a 4:3 - 3 day fast diet with real food every day, with a little twist of anti-inflammatory mixed in.

                        Comment


                        • I'm going to try and track it a little better and see if I notice any patterns. Honestly, though, my FBS tends to be in the 60s and 70s, at least the few times I've checked. But, wish I had checked after some really high protein days
                          -- Ruth

                          Comment


                          • I agree..awesome fbs!! It makes me see how out of whack mine is..lol

                            I am following yours and Chris`s mfp..
                            Karin


                            Created by MyFitnessPal.com - Free Calorie Counter

                            What am I doing? Depends on the day.

                            Comment


                            • well pay no attention to my MFP yesterday, I did not bother to track the nibbles that occurred during dinner prep.
                              Chris
                              "Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass. It is about learning to dance in the rain."
                              Unknown

                              My journal: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread36279.html

                              My "Program": doing my version of a 4:3 - 3 day fast diet with real food every day, with a little twist of anti-inflammatory mixed in.

                              Comment


                              • Random thoughts.

                                Good things about JUDDD.
                                * Feeling hunger
                                * Keeping my body guessing
                                * Eating really high & really low
                                * Structure -- It helps to have a plan for going up and down
                                * When combined with NK, no real hunger (DD hunger is mild & manageable)
                                * Nice to have a high day to enjoy foods that would ordinarily not fit
                                * Helping me get to my goal of 1 meal per day

                                Not so good
                                * Structure (yes, I think it's good and bad)
                                * Calorie counting (although I do this anyway, so it's a small downside
                                * Feeling almost forced to eat on UDs. Like, today, I'm ready to stop at 1100 calories. I'm done.
                                * UDs are difficult with NK. I feel like I'm eating fat for the sake of fat. Not natural. Of course, some of it I could work by adding more fat to my cooking...just not natural. Hard when I need to limit carbs to~10 g and protein around 50-55 g.
                                -- Ruth

                                Comment

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