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  • A few years back took a local CC class on Shakespeare for S&Gs.

    I found that early on, I was relying heavily on footnotes to understand every reference and allusion, and kind of saw the trees rather than the forest. By the time we were reading Othello and Lear, that shit was page-turning. Literally had hairs on the back of my neck raise up over some of those passages.

    I too hated, HATED Moby-Dick when I read it (gonna say... 20? for "fun"), but have often wondered if I missed something.

    Drssgchic, you're spouting a revised version of Harold Bloom's Anxiety of Influence.

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    • Originally posted by drssgchic View Post
      Ah, but you see if it were anything less it wouldn't have gotten such a strong reaction from you (I need to try it again, now that I'm old enough to really understand it) I mean- Twilight will fade into anonymity (please, please, praise Diety make it fade) because it's NOT going to inspire such loathing. Oh. Wait. Nevermind.
      Hmm... I have to agree somewhat. MD is tiresome, it seems to go on forever, but then so is being aboard a working fishing vessel and so does their hunt! And in the end I was so fed up with the obsession that I was sucked in full force thinking "HELL YES!!! EAT THEEEMMMMM ALLLLLLLLL!"
      So, score one Melville.
      But I still don't ever want to read it again.

      Twilight didn't even tell a compelling enough story to get me through he first book, and I tried TWICE. It was just awful and weak, and did I mention weak. Weak characters, weak writing. Weaksauce all around.
      It WILL fade away... it was a pop moment... 5 years from now people will say, "Oh yeah, you remember that Twilight thing" kind of like they talk about tacky 80's legwarmers.

      It's no MD, it's no Anna Karenina, it's no Lolita.

      Originally posted by Finnegans Wake View Post
      I found that early on, I was relying heavily on footnotes to understand every reference and allusion, and kind of saw the trees rather than the forest. By the time we were reading Othello and Lear, that shit was page-turning. Literally had hairs on the back of my neck raise up over some of those passages.
      I am this nerd. I dive in!
      When I did a Chaucer class, the class was assigned specific stories to read, examine, all that jazz.
      I read the WHOLE thing gleefully!
      The Canterbury Tales are really rather fun.
      Last edited by cori93437; 06-12-2012, 12:30 PM.
      “You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist.”
      ~Friedrich Nietzsche
      And that's why I'm here eating HFLC Primal/Paleo.

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      • Originally posted by Finnegans Wake View Post
        Drssgchic, you're spouting a revised version of Harold Bloom's Anxiety of Influence.
        Thank you Google . . . . but, ah, what? In other words, there's nothing new under the sun or whatever that quote is?

        See- that's why I'm no poet.

        Er, wait, no, I'm not a poet because I can't write poetry. Yeah, that's why.
        http://cattaillady.com/ My blog exploring the beginning stages of learning how to homestead. With the occasional rant.

        Originally Posted by TheFastCat: Less is more more or less

        And now I have an Etsy store: CattailsandCalendula

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        • * embarrassed to be reading about great literature and music in this journal while writing a totally lightweight story and listening to Katy Perry *
          JOIN THE PANDA SHOW!!! Primal With A Side Of FABULOUS and PANDALOONERY!

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          • Originally posted by cori93437 View Post
            Hmm... I have to agree somewhat. MD is tiresome, it seems to go on forever, but then so is being aboard a working fishing vessel and so does their hunt! And in the end I was so fed up with the obsession that I was sucked in full force thinking "HELL YES!!! EAT THEEEMMMMM ALLLLLLLLL!"
            So, score one Melville.
            But I still don't ever want to read it again.

            Twilight didn't even tell a compelling enough story to get me through he first book, and I tried TWICE. It was just awful and weak, and did I mention weak. Weak characters, weak writing. Weaksauce all around.
            It WILL fade away... it was a pop moment... 5 years from now people will say, "Oh yeah, you remember that Twilight thing" kind of like they talk about tacky 80's legwarmers.
            It's no MD, it's no Anna Karenina, it's no Lolita.
            Hmph- I had the same reaction at the end of The Horse Whisperer (the book). "Good for you, buddy- suicide by stallion is the appropriate reaction for being a dick and knocking up a married woman- and, btw, fucking with a traumatized horse's recovery." Yes, messing with the horse so he could fuck the woman is the part that pissed me off the most.

            If I hadn't read it in one night, I might have had more trouble. I'm STILL struggling with 50 Shades of Gray. I WILL finish it! I will! It sucks! (Sadly their popularity both explains so much about the "average" person's thought processes and makes me sad for the glorification of abuse. There is a difference between a dominent man and an abusive man. Christian and Edward are both abusive.)
            http://cattaillady.com/ My blog exploring the beginning stages of learning how to homestead. With the occasional rant.

            Originally Posted by TheFastCat: Less is more more or less

            And now I have an Etsy store: CattailsandCalendula

            Comment


            • Originally posted by canio6 View Post
              Yes, but then you get into the big Bach/Handel debate and things get ugly
              I play the organ (I've heard all the jokes...), so I am firmly on Team Bach.

              Actually, I love music from all eras, but then, once upon a time, I was a music major.
              “If I didn't define myself for myself, I would be crunched into other people's fantasies for me and eaten alive.” --Audre Lorde

              Owly's Journal

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              • Originally posted by Gay Panda View Post
                * embarrassed to be reading about great literature and music in this journal while writing a totally lightweight story and listening to Katy Perry *
                What was Twain's quote about his stories being like water rather than wine because all men like water?
                http://cattaillady.com/ My blog exploring the beginning stages of learning how to homestead. With the occasional rant.

                Originally Posted by TheFastCat: Less is more more or less

                And now I have an Etsy store: CattailsandCalendula

                Comment


                • I think there are just some authors with which one will never click. I couldn't stand Ethan Frome and thus have completely lost interest in reading any of Wharton's other works.

                  Also, the only experience I have of 50 Shades of Grey is the delightful reading of it by Gilbert Gottfried. I do not intend to add it to my reading list anytime soon.
                  “If I didn't define myself for myself, I would be crunched into other people's fantasies for me and eaten alive.” --Audre Lorde

                  Owly's Journal

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by drssgchic View Post
                    Thank you Google . . . . but, ah, what? In other words, there's nothing new under the sun or whatever that quote is?
                    Bloom's a fucking trip is what he is. But you won't find anyone who knows Western Lit better.

                    I enjoyed Anxiety of Influence and Map of Misreading, which kind of lay the foundation of his theory of criticism. The Western Canon is worth going over to see what you missed (got me to read Blood Meridian and a bunch of others), and Shakespeare: the Invention of the Human is a very nice overview of the Bard, with Bloom's strong opinion interjected. Oh, and Book of J is really fascinating: the J texts are culled from the Torah (J being one of the Biblical source writers, along with E and D and P and, later, Q) and re-translated by David Rosenberg; then Bloom goes all lit crit and comes up with the idea that the J writer was actually a woman living at the time of David (never quite offers proof, but who am I to argue with Bloom?).

                    So, his theory involves all sorts of interesting/musty-dusty stuff, depending on viewpoint. Central is the notion of agon, Greek for contest, which is how he sees literature. The young bucks all read Shakespeare and Hemingway and Eliot and think, I can do better, right? So no, it's not about literature having nothing new to say, it's about taking the old and shaking it up, and seeing whether you measure up or fall short. Bloom's exegesis of this involves stuff from the Kabbalah and it gets very funky after that. Sort of like this.

                    Writer cogitates over established piece of lit, thinks its bones are still strong but it falls short of remaining relevant today, or could be updated and called something new. Writer updates the old work, influenced by it but trying to establish his own voice. As the writer grows stronger and more insightful, he pours out all the old influences (kenosis, a word that comes up in the Gospels), steps back from his older work and influences, and then experiences daemonization, which as best I can explain is the filling up of inspiration after the emptying out of influence. The superior writer will be able to incorporate influence seamlessly, "subsuming" earlier writers and in some way rendering them obsolete and dated. But until some young writer can knock you off your hill, there you sit, challenged but eternal.

                    His contention that Shakespeare is the center of the canon means that while Shakespeare has influenced plenty of writers, there's been no bigger fish to gobble him up.

                    Anyway, there's some phrase Bloom uses, I think it may be reaction-formation (Freud?), that made me think of the reaction to Moby-Dick and, well, Twilight. If it pisses you off, write something better and bury it in time's trash-heap, right? The "anxiety" in the Anxiety of Influence comes when you look Shakespeare eye-to-eye and you blink.

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                    • Handel is marvelous.

                      Bach is godlike. Bach is a drug to me. There was a reason they sent the Brandenburg Concerto into space.

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                      • Fartski, I'm just blathering, people. End of fiscal year crunch and precious little time to goof, so when a little time bubbles up, what do I do? I become the guest who wouldn't leave on someone else's journal.

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                        • FW... I love you.
                          You cogitate.
                          Blather on dear sir!
                          Bach wrote cello suites... nuff said. All the love!
                          “You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist.”
                          ~Friedrich Nietzsche
                          And that's why I'm here eating HFLC Primal/Paleo.

                          Comment


                          • I've loved MOST lit books I've read. On the other hand, there is one lit book my HS english teacher made us read that I would gladly throw into the fire: Cry the Beloved Country. I. HATE. THAT. BOOK. Blablahblahblah, apartheid blows, wah... She could've picked any other book on apartheid in South Africa and I might have enjoyed it. That one sucked from the ass of Stephanie Meyer and spit out the result.
                            I was the kid that read the unadulterated (no footnotes) Shakespeare and LOVED it, begged for more. Then again, as a kid, we were told Shakespeare must've used a woman like my grandmother as a reference for The Taming of the Shrew and "if you think I'm evil, go read Hamlet and get back to me." We were told that Romeo and Juliet isn't love, it's lust, go read Robert Heinlein's Stranger in a Strange Land for love.
                            We grew up immersed in literature. When I first discovered Animal Farm in 4th grade, it was a pretty story. Reread it in 8th grade, I got some of the darker meaning. Reread it in 10th grade and I LOVED it. I can still go passage for passage with the Oresteia, Illiad, and Odyssey. I was the kid in UIL Poetry that chose Ambrose Bierce and Matthew Arnold while reading Stephen King for UIL Prose. When everyone else was reading Goosebumps, I was getting goosebumps from 1984 and Brave New World.
                            Stephenie Meyer's phase will die out as the trash it is soon enough, as will so many others in pop lit. The glorious ones of our era will survive, precious few that there are, and people will know us by our authors.
                            Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, steak in one hand, chocolate in the other, yelling "Holy F***, What a Ride!"
                            My Latest Journal

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                            • Originally posted by cori93437 View Post
                              FW... I love you.
                              You cogitate.
                              Blather on dear sir!
                              Bach wrote cello suites... nuff said. All the love!
                              I adore the Unaccompanied Cello Suites. In my raucous punk days I would listen to them over and over. And sometimes I would patch a cord into my stereo's headphone jack and run it into a guitar amp* and listen to it distorted and max volume. But usually just the regular way. The English and French Suites, the Goldbergs, the Cello Suites, the cantatas and Passion music... It's in my blood.


                              *This was also an effective mode of expressing displeasure when my then-neighbor at Fred's Luxury Estates** would roll in at 3:00 fucking a in the m and begin playing country music at sufficient decibels to let folks for several counties know that a hoedown was underway. I, who value sleep above most other mortal wants, was always amused and patient with this proclivity, for the nanosecond before my eye would twitch open and lava began coursing through my veins. Here, my rebuttal usually lay with one of two (or both of the following) modes of editorializing: 1) I would drop 20# barbells from shoulder height onto the floor several times, or 2) using the stereo out-to-amp in method, I would flip the amp downward onto the floor and play Motorhead, which, sufficiently distorted, was an unintelligible roar of madness.

                              This neighbor may have been the cleverly nicknamed Chief, so called because of supposed American Indian heritage, but it may have been someone subsequent to Chief, and frankly there are many reasons for me not to remember details of the era roughly comprising the 1980s. I believe at one point I nailed a list of demands (something along the lines QUIT PLAYING YOUR FUCKING COUNTRY MUSIC) to his door, a la Luther, and now that I reminisce there were several times smoke bombs were sent hurtling to the bottom of the steps in protest.

                              **Not the real name of the apartments, but the name of the real guy was Fred Groff, undoubtedly deceased. Let me skate late on the rent several times, bless 'im. Place was sort of a shithole, really. But Mrs. FW didn't mind, thought it quaint. Course, three months later we were out and shacking, so perhaps she's being kind. This was several years after Chief or Chief's replacement. Whoever the douche with the country music was.

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                              • Originally posted by Owly View Post
                                I play the organ (I've heard all the jokes...), so I am firmly on Team Bach.

                                Actually, I love music from all eras, but then, once upon a time, I was a music major.
                                Damn, if only you hadn't given up on white, cisgendered males


                                I'm more a Handel guy to be honest. Not that Bach is not fantastic but given how prolific he was there is much that doesn't quite do it for me.

                                As for Ethan Frome, I actually enjoyed it. Jane Austen, not so much. >.>

                                Originally posted by Finnegans Wake View Post
                                Handel is marvelous.

                                Bach is godlike. Bach is a drug to me. There was a reason they sent the Brandenburg Concerto into space.
                                True, though too many people play it on flutes now instead of recorders like it was intended. Breaks my old recorder playing heart

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