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  • Originally posted by canio6 View Post
    Woop Woop!

    For whatever it is worth it was not a rape in the book.
    that's good. right before the first rape scene (where i think it was more implied), the male character appeared to be somewhat empathetic. i had hoped they were going to continue that relationship of him being empathetic, but instead he raped her. i suppose you're right about the character development, kind of a shame. i might read the books, the storyline is interesting.


    I find your statement about men above to be disappointing. It is a bit of a reach in my mind to suggest that even men who treat women respectfully get off on rape scenes. And to say it affects their sexual tastes (even if subtly) suggests that even respectful men might treat a woman disrespectfully (or harmfully) when it comes to sex. It is rather sad if that is how you feel.
    it's not necessarily how i feel, maybe more of a fear than a prediction. it's like the whole porn thing. if a guy (or a woman) is used to looking at pictures of unnaturally "perfect," airbrushed photos of people, does that alter their perception of what's "normal" and "healthy"? i don't know. but i do know that when i look at porn, or even airbrushed photos of "perfect"-looking women, i feel like shit about myself. when i see sexual violence in movies, i feel slightly violated. maybe men are somehow very different in how they are susceptible.

    Originally posted by zoebird View Post
    i'll speak for myself. those scenes in movies *mess with my head* in a lot of ways.

    so i don't know how they don't *mess with other people's heads* even unconsciously. but, i'm not in everyone else's head.

    and, it's sort of like "you are what you eat." i've observed myself in that if i read too much of X kind of material, it messes with me. it can be completely in keeping with how i work -- eg, Yoga Journal -- and still mess with me.
    yes, maybe i shouldn't generalize, but it really does mess with me. i tend to be very empathetic in that sense. for example, when i was studying local history, while reading about a particular flash flood which swept through our area decades ago and the personal stories of people who died or were affected, i cried several times just thinking about it. i have a tendency to put myself in a person's shoes in their own story to see how it might affect a person, and in that sense i can be a little oversensitive about tragedies. it's the same with movies even though i don't intentionally identify with a particular character.

    Sometime in the late 1990s, YJ was purchased by a big magazine company. the changes at first were subtle -- truly, not that big of a deal. But then i started to notice that instead fo reading it and feeling like "Yeah, that's cool info! i can use that in my practice" I was starting to feel like "man, I really suck as a human being, and my yoga practice is just not authentic!"

    i went back and contemplated when those ideas started to sneak in, and it was several months back -- perhaps a year o more -- and i started to connect it to specific yoga journal articles that were articles-cum-advertisements. Essentially, there was an article about "the best yoga gear this year!" and it was so expensive that I couldn't afford it. I don't read fashion magazines for this reason (among many, one image of beauty), and that is one of the articles that apparently i reacted to.

    Anyway, there were many others. My own journals expressed frustration of not being as flexible as so and so, or not being as good a teacher as such and such, and simply just not being very worthy.

    So, i stopped reading yoga journal. within about 4 weeks, the thoughts had dissipated, and whenever i read YJ now, I actually feel very similarly to when I did before I gave it up. It's amazing the *impact* that media can have, within it's images.

    There are blogs relating to being a mom that I won't read because I'm not that kind of mom. BY that i mean, these really cool, artsy moms who always have awesome craft projects for themselves and their kids. I know some moms whose babies (under a year) were doing various "crafting play" and there are adorable photoes. I thought I would try hawk on painting, and he got frustrated becuase it wasn't working (the way he wanted), and i got frustrated by the mess, and now. . .well, painting happens at kindy. Because it just made me bats. And I don't craft either.

    But when I look at those blogs, something in me goes "but i SHOULD BE. . ." and it's not necessarily what the blog intends (though I think it is what YJ intends), and well, there you go.

    So, I do think that the images have major impact, even if we are not aware.

    I mean, in my mind, why include a 4 minute scene? And from your perspective as viewer, why watch it? because the other 176 minutes (of a film) may be worth it? True, but I could use 3 mins and 90 seconds of character development any day. And if you can fast forward through it, and get the gist/meaning, then why sit through it?

    (eg, it's one thing to be in a theater and confronted with it, and not being able to fast forward, vs being at home, and watching the whole scene because it's there).
    yes i agree. i also tend to avoid mommy blogs and even parenting books. don't get me started on crafts. maybe i'm way off base here, but i've never seen a kid enjoy crafts by following whatever pre-conceived ideas were placed before him. the few times we've done crafts, it was basically "start with whatever materials they've provided and do whatever you want with them." wth does each kid have to make the same exact picture?

    tonight was another girls' night out. we had a wild time going out to eat dinner and then shopping at Goodwill (lol). here was my dinner:
    salad with house white balsamic vinaigrette

    Photo0314 by SaoirseCaesar2011, on Flickr

    Grandpa Dick's burger (ordered bunless) with BBQ sauce, bacon, jalapenos, and cheese

    Photo0315 by SaoirseCaesar2011, on Flickr

    for dessert, a sampler of four homemade ice creams. flavors were white peach delicacy, pomegranate chocolate mint (with fennel), apple cider pecan, and roasted marshmallow&beet with balsamic vinegar. the roasted marshmallow/beet was by far my favorite. it had a sweet buttery flavor to it, with just a hint of tang and a hint of beets.

    Photo0316 by SaoirseCaesar2011, on Flickr
    my primal journal:
    http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum...Primal-Journal

    Comment


    • how did I miss this thread? Like it!

      Comment


      • my primal journal:
        http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum...Primal-Journal

        Comment


        • does that food affect how I feel about myself? I don't want to be negatively impacted by your media.

          those ice creams sound crazy. when we had hawk's blessing, my client made the most amazing mint gelato. OMG with mint from her garden. it was so good. so minty, and yet very herby -- green, you know? leafy in a way. it was WONDERFUL. best thing ever.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Saoirse View Post
            it's not necessarily how i feel, maybe more of a fear than a prediction. it's like the whole porn thing. if a guy (or a woman) is used to looking at pictures of unnaturally "perfect," airbrushed photos of people, does that alter their perception of what's "normal" and "healthy"? i don't know. but i do know that when i look at porn, or even airbrushed photos of "perfect"-looking women, i feel like shit about myself. when i see sexual violence in movies, i feel slightly violated. maybe men are somehow very different in how they are susceptible.

            I think people are very different in how they view things. We all draw upon life experiences etc. As some Greek philosopher said (Epicitus maybe?) - Men are disturbed not by things but the view they take of things. It didn't bother me beyond a "huh, that wasn't developed very well' sense as I take the whole show and merge it with what I know of how they 'really' feel about each other as expressed by the author in the book. You looking at it just as what it is has a different view. It's life and that is what we as people do. I can relate as honestly I had/have some very negative opinions about women in some ways which I fight with every day. It's one reason I like MDA, the women here often refute my admittedly unfair preconceived notions fairly often. So when I say that it is sad you feel a certain way (or appeared to based on your post) some of that comes from my own struggle to not make similar judgements. But anyway, enough of that crap. On to the food pron Very nice indeed and now I am hungry..at 2:30 am...

            Comment


            • I'm going to try to pretend I didn't read the bottom of p. 64. However, it needs to be said that I'm really fucking offended by what was said and even more disgusted by the absence of protest from any of the other female readers here. There's so much more I could say but Jon responded much better than I ever could.

              Moving on: Grats on hitting 120! Where are you trying to end up, by the way? Or are you just eye-balling it at this point?
              August 2010: 207 lb, 37" waist, 25+% BF | Currently: 177 lb, 33" waist, ~15% BF

              I have a new site up and will soon be blogging at The Wayward Mind. (My journal is semi-retired at this point)

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              • i'm really sorry guys that i've offended you. i don't know what it feels like to be a guy, so i can only guess. it's also possible that it came out the wrong way. i was saying that i worry about the effect of sexual violence in media, NOT that i think all men like to see rape portrayed. i worry about the subtle impact, maybe if a man was turned on by a rape scene and sees titillating rape scenes often enough, there might be a subtle pavlovian effect whereas sexual dominance over women=turnon. i'm told again and again how men are such visual creatures, sex carries little emotion, etc. i can see from your reactions that this is flat out false. i'm truly sorry that i've offended either of you. as you've pointed out canio, we all have our hang ups. most of the time, we don't see them until someone points them out. i'd be grateful if either of you wanted to extrapolate on your POV so i can understand where you're coming from.

                for now, i'm just trying to lower bodyfat %. 110ish is my goal. based on an estimated lean body mass of 88lbs, i'm maybe around 27% BF. i think that BF estimate is a little high, but who knows. fat loss is basically my goal while i'm still trying to find a regular babysitter for workouts. honestly, i don't think i'm motivated enough to do it at home, but i think that would be a different matter if i went to a gym and committed a certain period of time (30 min? 1 hour?) to working out. then my goal will be to build a bit of muscle mass. it's a combination of vanity and the desire to have muscle simply for health. later my goals will shift to something more functional when "time away" isn't such a scarce commodity.
                Last edited by Saoirse; 08-20-2011, 09:46 AM.
                my primal journal:
                http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum...Primal-Journal

                Comment


                • yeah, i don't want to assume that the images affect men ina specific way. it's why i'm *begging the question* as to why someone would want to watch it. I think that things can be implied, even strongly implied, and work well in many cases.

                  but in other cases, it does need to be shown. An example is the violence in Flame and Citron, which is a film about danish assassins in WW2. They were everyday men who felt compelled to do something well outside of the ordinary. The violence shown actually demonstrated the character's inner conflict with the whole process. And so, it was pertinent.

                  But, I think that in many cases, it's not pertinent, and therefore it's a waste of film-time. From an artistic point of view, film time is important.

                  from a viewer POV, i just don't want to see something that doesn't push the story forward. In Girl with Dragon Tattoo -- I think it would have been enough to simply show the start, not the whole deal. I don't think it was *that* relevant to the character's arc, and how she acted because of it. KWIM? And, when it doesn't do that, I feel uncomfortable with it. I don't know why it's there, or whatever. And so I beg the quesiton -- why are we watching it when we don't have to? why is the filmmaker putting it in?

                  and as a woman -- and perhaps we are more impacted by it -- i do feel problematized by it. i mean, at the "who/what" i am level. It's not weakness, per se, but it is something.

                  And i know men and women are different, so I don't know what gives. I mean, I htink that men might look at a men's fashion magazine and go "hey, nice watch!" whereas a woman looks at a woman's magazine and goes "jesus, my thighs are huge! i'm never going to be sexy to a man! I am unloveable!" So, it could be somewhere in there, KWIM?

                  i feel like i'm just sort of skating arond broad ideas, and not getting anywhere. LOL

                  Comment


                  • i know that feeling about "time away." it's been tough for me to "work out" the way that I want to, nearly everything right now is working and child care -- and walking in between.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by zoebird View Post
                      And i know men and women are different, so I don't know what gives. I mean, I htink that men might look at a men's fashion magazine and go "hey, nice watch!" whereas a woman looks at a woman's magazine and goes "jesus, my thighs are huge! i'm never going to be sexy to a man! I am unloveable!" So, it could be somewhere in there, KWIM?
                      lol, yeah, and then the next thought is "wtf do i care so much about this?" my husband and i were looking at pictures of models the other night, he was telling me what he likes/dislikes, and i came to the conclusion that i am entirely fucked. it doesn't matter how much effort and discipline i put into my body, it's so damaged from pregnancies that i could never hope to look remotely like any of those models (okay, shoulders, back, etc. look good. stomach and breasts are fucked). my husband had to bring me back to earth by reminding me that he married me because of my personality (though looks were a factor).

                      in all fairness, it's entirely possible that men look at magazines and feel inadequate. society is putting a lot more pressure on men to be the perfect provider, boyfriend/husband, have the perfect body, be sensitive but MANLY, don't be too manly, give her amazing orgasms every time... not only are they getting a lot more messages now about how to act or not act, but they're getting as many mixed messages as we women are.
                      my primal journal:
                      http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum...Primal-Journal

                      Comment


                      • I'm not offended. As I said, I harbor some pretty jacked up opinions, which I am trying very hard to change. As such, when I read things that are equally as jacked up it makes me sad rather than offended. Your statement came across as 'all men get off on rape scenes. Even nice guys who treat women right are actually hiding the fact that sexual assault is a turn on. All men are affected as such." That is rather offensive taken at face value.

                        That said, I can understand that view to an extent. Much in the media is pushed at men's dominance over women. I took an advertising class in college and we spent an entire day looking at ads that showed exactly that. It is subtle and pervasive. That said, I don't think most men notice or care. It is as Zoebird said, "Nice watch." Actually, it is probably more along the lines of, "Huh, hot chick and oh, yeah, he's got a watch on." I think the ads have a far greater affect on women which would help explain the bad boy/douche bag mystique which drives nice guys nuts. Nothing is more infuriating that being nice to a girl (I say girl because I like to think women are smarter) and have her go out with some douche instead. Then three weeks later she shows up crying with a black eye and guess what, pussy that you are, you comfort her until she is better and runs back to the douche. Circle of life and all that.

                        As for looking at a magazine and feeling inadequate. Yeah, doesn't happen. I see guys sometimes and think, "Damn, it would be cool to be in that good a shape," but I never sit here and feel bad about myself. I am pretty fucking awesome whether I have a six pack or a keg. It is one of my big pet peeves with women. Why the fuck do you care what some chick in a magazine looks like? Because societal pressure blah blah? Really? I thought you were liberated and had equality and all that jazz. You are going to sit around pounding down pint after pint of ice cream because some model has a tiny ass? I just don't get it.

                        And sorry, but 'married you for your personality?' really? That sounds like a way to say, "It's cool that you are not that attractive. I like to talk to you." That is lame as shit. Firstly, you are hot. Secondly, my wife looks nothing like a model but she is beautiful as she can be. Beautiful because she looks like herself. Sure, her personality is great, and I love it, but fat, thin, 3 kids later, she is beautiful. Statements like that just piss me off.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by canio6 View Post
                          I'm not offended. As I said, I harbor some pretty jacked up opinions, which I am trying very hard to change. As such, when I read things that are equally as jacked up it makes me sad rather than offended. Your statement came across as 'all men get off on rape scenes. Even nice guys who treat women right are actually hiding the fact that sexual assault is a turn on. All men are affected as such." That is rather offensive taken at face value.
                          yeah, not really what i said. i truly appreciate that you're willing to look at your own assumptions with a critical eye. and btw, i'm not committed to what i typed, it was more of a "maybe this is the way things are" than a "i've thought long and hard about this, and this is my firm belief" if that makes any sense to you.

                          ...Because societal pressure blah blah? Really? I thought you were liberated and had equality and all that jazz. You are going to sit around pounding down pint after pint of ice cream because some model has a tiny ass? I just don't get it.
                          haha, yeah i don't really pound the pints of ice cream but i get what you're saying. it is really lame, and it's not "liberated" so to speak. part of me doesn't want to be "liberated" in the typical sense. i care about how i look because i know that it does matter to others, and so it matters to me. i want to be hot to my husband for as long as it's possible. at the same time, it's really a lame indicator of self-worth. one of those areas i have to work on is just liking who i am and not basing my sense of self worth on others' opinions.

                          in terms of "liberation" there's a difference between goal and reality. i want to be "liberated" in the sense of sex positivity, and part of that is feeling like my husband thinks i'm attractive. so that's the ideal, but the reality is that the more focus i place on trying to achieve a certain body type (with the intent of staying competitive), the more i'm focused on my looks, and the more i'm going to base my sense of self-worth on how close i am to achieving that goal.

                          And sorry, but 'married you for your personality?' really? That sounds like a way to say, "It's cool that you are not that attractive. I like to talk to you." That is lame as shit. Firstly, you are hot. Secondly, my wife looks nothing like a model but she is beautiful as she can be. Beautiful because she looks like herself. Sure, her personality is great, and I love it, but fat, thin, 3 kids later, she is beautiful. Statements like that just piss me off.
                          lol, that's kind of how it came off to me. as in "she's not hot, but she's got a great personality." i don't really feel beautiful to him, but maybe that's me and not him. i know that he's complimented me a lot, but it wasn't in the everlasting "you're beautiful because you're you" sort of way. btw, thanks. it's nice to have validation (though some parts of my body truly are fucked, i just have to get over it).


                          so blah blah blah, yes i'm a work in progress. btw i ate blackberry ice cream in a GF cone today and it was FABULOUS.
                          Last edited by Saoirse; 08-20-2011, 06:22 PM.
                          my primal journal:
                          http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum...Primal-Journal

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Saoirse View Post
                            yeah, not really what i said.
                            Understood. I am saying that is how it came across. Either way, I'm over it.

                            Comment


                            • cool. my sincere apologies to patrick as well, i usually don't mean to offend. and if i do offend you i'd rather hear about it.
                              my primal journal:
                              http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum...Primal-Journal

                              Comment


                              • i think that part of the comparison game stuff is really deeply ingrained.

                                on the one hand, i really don't care. I mean, i totally live my life my way. But those magazines do my head *in* and I purposefully don't read them. And my husband is 250% against them because he sees how they muck with women. He really hates those magazines like US or whatever that go "Look at the hot post-baby bods!" and "are they too skinny?!" he thinks it's terribly disrespectful to *those* women (actresses, models, etc), and he really does see what it does to other women.

                                Here's my thing. It wouldn't force me to comfort with food. But look at it this way. I'm not totally clear on this, either, but this is how i see it.

                                Men are inherently awesome, and then they have merits. Merits like good job, good hygeine habits, etc. When men compete, they literally are comparing merits, not themselves. (this is in no way absolute)

                                Women don't get merits. We are merits. So, men collect the best women, and to show that you are a good woman -- above other women -- you have to get a man with X +1 merits. Which means, you need to be What Men Want.

                                And so how do we figure out What Men Want? Well, see, good questions. I have no clue. But men make a fair bit of media, and fashion, so -- my guess is -- they are creating what they want. And we go "Right, I will be like that."

                                It's not the "average woman" who gets to be a model. Models get picked because they are what men with merits want. Models become merits of the men with the most merits, too.

                                So, you look at it this way. I want my offspring and myself to do well. I need a guy with the goods. NOt just he's nice and awesome. And, it's really not relevant as to whether or not he has a 6 pack. The question is -- does he have enough merits to make me real? to make me a valuable woman?

                                Freaky, right? Because it's confidence by proxy.

                                Anyway, this is why women are constantly comparing themselvecs -- to other women. Those other women are their competition for the Men with the Most Merits, for whom they can have value (or not).

                                And, It's not like it's conscious. It really isn't. I know that -- sitting in my home or whatever -- I'm a good person, i have a healthy (and lovely) body, and that i'm looking good and doing my thing. And that I have a good personality and that i'm smart and all of that. I know I have inherent value.

                                But, I go out into the world, and it's a bit of a shocker. Lots of judgment from all circles -- mostly from other women. men -- it's either "neutral" or "appreciate." So, women in constnat, cut-throat comparison.

                                Anyway, I don't know if it makes any sense, but there it is.

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