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  • Originally posted by Saoirse View Post
    maybe i'll hang some "beware of dog" signs on the yard. i've been reading about dog behavior and apparently i'm doing it all wrong. i'm down with being the alpha and seeing a dog as a dog (rather than as a creature with human emotions), but i thought that meant correcting every bad behavior. turns out, our dog just doesn't see me as alpha yet. i need to quit talking and learn dog body language, which is good, because i prefer to communicate via body language anyway. it's much more intuitive. today was our last walk before the surgery, and then i pick him up from the vet tomorrow.

    oh, also, pits need "mental challenges." it's not a challenge like humans like challenges, but rather things that i would consider frustrating. like putting a treat on the floor and telling the dog he can't have it for a while, then letting him have it.
    One thing I would suggest (apologies if I am telling you how to suck eggs here) is to make sure that all of your kids take turns feeding the dog. Food is THE way dogs accept your dominance over them.

    No adult dog is going to naturally think that they are below a toddler within the family, which means that when he thinks your wee boy is out of line it's entirely appropriate for him to 'discipline' the boy. By having your boy (and your other kids) feed the dog his dinner sometimes, it reinforces to the dog that his place in the family hierarchy is below your kids.

    In terms of challenges for your dog we had friends with a rigid rubber 'thingy' (looks a little like a ball) that they put peanut butter inside. It took the dog about a hour to lick it all out.

    Edit: while I never knew about it with any dogs I had growing up, have you looked into the clicker method for training him? We've found some pretty good videos that use it (our kids are a big fan of Dazzle)
    Last edited by magicmerl; 08-28-2012, 04:26 PM.
    Disclaimer: I eat 'meat and vegetables' ala Primal, although I don't agree with the carb curve. I like Perfect Health Diet and WAPF Lactofermentation a lot.

    Griff's cholesterol primer
    5,000 Cal Fat <> 5,000 Cal Carbs
    Winterbike: What I eat every day is what other people eat to treat themselves.
    TQP: I find for me that nutrition is much more important than what I do in the gym.
    bloodorchid is always right

    Comment


    • Originally posted by unsuperb View Post
      /lurking.
      1. Cute dog is cute! I have two bullies, and they've been a riot.

      2. The whole "alpha" thing with dogs is not entirely accurate and is not safe to attempt with larger dogs (not that it's good with smaller dogs, but they are tinier of mouth). Instead of trying to correct every bad behavior; redirect, redirect, and redirect some more (so if he's chewing on something naughty, trade with something that's okay; or if he's tugging on something and won't drop, trade with a toy he can have that forces him to drop the other, and so on). That way he'll learn to do acceptable behaviors when the occasion calls for it. A good canine person is Patricia McConnell; she has several books (and ebooks) available.
      and I used this site: Digital Dog Training Textbook | Dog Star Daily
      heaps when I first started training.
      Patricia mcconnell was suggested to me by the clerk at the pet store. Actually, funny story. I mentioned that i adopted a dog from the specific shelter, and she asked which. It turns out, she volunteers there, and she related to me that the head trainer there was so in love with my dog that he wanted to take him home (but already has too many dogs himself). Everyone at the shelter is very happy that our dog was adopted, he's very much a favorite.

      anyway, from what i'm told (and what you're telling me), raising a pit is very similar to raising toddlers. i've had a few years experience with that, so i think i'm on the right path. but the missing key, i think, was/is body language and tone (which both convey dominance). his trainers at the shelter are all men, and so he's not quite used to my higher pitch voice. I have been reading more about dominant body language, and i'm realizing that most common affectionate human behaviors are actually signs of submission. dog was afraid of the sprayer while i bathed him, and to try to calm him i hugged him in a way where my shoulder was under his chin. this sort of submissive cue is more likely to frighten him than settle. other than that, every time i've violated his personal space, he has acted submissively toward me. poor dog is probably just getting mixed messages from me.

      why do you say that the dominance thing isn't totally accurate or safe?
      Originally posted by magicmerl View Post
      One thing I would suggest (apologies if I am telling you how to suck eggs here) is to make sure that all of your kids take turns feeding the dog. Food is THE way dogs accept your dominance over them.

      No adult dog is going to naturally think that they are below a toddler within the family, which means that when he thinks your wee boy is out of line it's entirely appropriate for him to 'discipline' the boy. By having your boy (and your other kids) feed the dog his dinner sometimes, it reinforces to the dog that his place in the family hierarchy is below your kids.
      this is a good point. another interesting thing i read today was that you need to have your dogs walk beside or behind you, and only stop when you choose rather than when the dog is interested in something. this establishes you as the pack leader on the walk, so the dog will follow your body language instead of expecting you to follow his. our dog is quite pull-y and interested in whatever we pass, so this will be a challenge for us.

      In terms of challenges for your dog we had friends with a rigid rubber 'thingy' (looks a little like a ball) that they put peanut butter inside. It took the dog about a hour to lick it all out.

      Edit: while I never knew about it with any dogs I had growing up, have you looked into the clicker method for training him? We've found some pretty good videos that use it (our kids are a big fan of Dazzle)
      i picked up "kong extreme" and a large kennel. i intend to take him for a run every day during the cooler part of the day. but when we have company over, at least until we know that he will be calm, we intend to kennel him. the head trainer suggested stuffing the kong with peanut butter and something else, and then freezing it. i wonder if a more dog-friendly food like mashed avocado would work just as well? at least the fatty acid profile would be better.

      WRT clicker method, the trainer said it works well, but instead of a clicker they use "yes," so they don't need to carry around a clicker everywhere.
      my primal journal:
      http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum...Primal-Journal

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Saoirse View Post
        this is a good point. another interesting thing i read today was that you need to have your dogs walk beside or behind you, and only stop when you choose rather than when the dog is interested in something. this establishes you as the pack leader on the walk, so the dog will follow your body language instead of expecting you to follow his. our dog is quite pull-y and interested in whatever we pass, so this will be a challenge for us.
        I guess that will work if you are on a bike or you have an old dog.... Ours was always too energetic for that. On the plus side it's a good upper arm workout for you if you want to move him on from an interesting smell

        I would also make him wait until after you guys eat dinner to feed him his too.
        Disclaimer: I eat 'meat and vegetables' ala Primal, although I don't agree with the carb curve. I like Perfect Health Diet and WAPF Lactofermentation a lot.

        Griff's cholesterol primer
        5,000 Cal Fat <> 5,000 Cal Carbs
        Winterbike: What I eat every day is what other people eat to treat themselves.
        TQP: I find for me that nutrition is much more important than what I do in the gym.
        bloodorchid is always right

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Saoirse View Post
          why do you say that the dominance thing isn't totally accurate or safe?
          Well, I guess it depends on what you mean by dominance. A certain trainer who I won't name relies on establishing dominance/being the "alpha" over dogs, but in doing so, is only getting them to respond out of fear and when a dog is responding out of fear, well, they can be unpredictable. Things like rolling a dog onto their back or forcing them into positions they wouldn't normally assume (in order to assert your own dominance) is not a good way to get them to learn. But it sounds like you mean it in an entirely different way than I originally interpreted it

          And yes, they're very much like toddlers There were many frustrating, tear-my-hair out moments with both of them, but now they're pretty cool dogs. I've worked on clicker training with one (and using capture words, like "yes"), and the other is deaf, so he gets sign language. Word of caution: despite their size, they're pretty sure they are lap dogs.


          Schmelly says thank you for adopting

          Comment


          • Originally posted by unsuperb View Post
            Well, I guess it depends on what you mean by dominance. A certain trainer who I won't name relies on establishing dominance/being the "alpha" over dogs, but in doing so, is only getting them to respond out of fear and when a dog is responding out of fear, well, they can be unpredictable. Things like rolling a dog onto their back or forcing them into positions they wouldn't normally assume (in order to assert your own dominance) is not a good way to get them to learn. But it sounds like you mean it in an entirely different way than I originally interpreted it
            i think trying to exert dominance over a pit bull sounds like a losing battle. pretty sure he's stronger than i am, and more dangerous. but i suppose that's what you were referring to.

            And yes, they're very much like toddlers There were many frustrating, tear-my-hair out moments with both of them, but now they're pretty cool dogs. I've worked on clicker training with one (and using capture words, like "yes"), and the other is deaf, so he gets sign language. Word of caution: despite their size, they're pretty sure they are lap dogs.
            this makes me smile.


            Schmelly says thank you for adopting
            this too.
            my primal journal:
            http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum...Primal-Journal

            Comment


            • cute!

              Comment


              • I agree with the idea of redirecting energy and attention, not just with pits. But IMO the idea of dominance should never, ever be coupled with fear. It should be because the pup wants to please you, get your praise, know he's doing a good job. I'm lucky to have a wonderful dog, and he knows I'm alpha, but it's not like I have to keep asserting my fearful presence: when I say leave it, he leaves it, and then he gets his praise or treat.

                Neighbor has rescue pits, love 'em all. Their energy and exuberance can be like trying to put 10 ounces of water into an 8 ounce cup, ya know? We sometimes walk them or take care of them if she's away, and the big boy has a man-crush on me. But again, he's pretty good with me because he sees me as alpha, very few problems.

                Another neighbor has a pretty young female pit. Still jumps up a lot. Caught me by surprise the other day and whonked my right on the chin with that cinderblock skull of hers, but luckily I can take a punch.

                Since we became dog people, I'm respectful of pits, cautious with ones I don't know, but not afraid of them. The other year there was one loose in the neighborhood I didn't know and thought nothing of going after it with a leash - she had a collar on, and luckily I got her and returned her and another dog that was loose to the rightful owner. Some folks would see a pit and just stay indoors.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Finnegans Wake View Post
                  I agree with the idea of redirecting energy and attention, not just with pits. But IMO the idea of dominance should never, ever be coupled with fear. It should be because the pup wants to please you, get your praise, know he's doing a good job. I'm lucky to have a wonderful dog, and he knows I'm alpha, but it's not like I have to keep asserting my fearful presence: when I say leave it, he leaves it, and then he gets his praise or treat.
                  that seems pretty ideal, but i have to wonder how that was established, and if your size and deep voice made it easier to establish dominance, or if there were other behaviors and body language you exhibit which help in that regard. (wondering so i can emulate them, fyi)

                  love your pit stories. most of my friends are either oddly silent or somewhat fearful. i think when they meet him, they'll get past their prejudice.

                  poor guy was castrated today. we've had a high of 104, and instructions to give no food or water until tomorrow morning, and no walks or play for 7-10 days. well, he's still going to get some walks. he's just way too curious to sit at home all day. and i've given him a tiny bit of water, twice. we're talking about 1/4 c each time. it's just too hot to go without water. i was able to get him to heel during most of our walk (onleash) around the back yard. and not by force either, just by asserting that we weren't moving forward until obeyed. poor guy is so bored right now.
                  Last edited by Saoirse; 08-29-2012, 05:18 PM.
                  my primal journal:
                  http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum...Primal-Journal

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Saoirse View Post
                    that seems pretty ideal, but i have to wonder how that was established, and if your size and deep voice made it easier to establish dominance, or if there were other behaviors and body language you exhibit which help in that regard. (wondering so i can emulate them, fyi)
                    I think that part of it is that 'guy' body language is similar to dog body language (except for the crotch sniffing that is ). Just think of 'male bonding' (chest bumps etc) and extrapolate out to canines. Getting some rough pats/whacks on the shoulders and chest while being told that he's a good dog seems like most dog's idea of heaven (caveat: not little little dogs, but you don't have one of those).

                    Whereas girls/women seem to have been socialised into thinking that's not ladylike. Maybe?
                    Disclaimer: I eat 'meat and vegetables' ala Primal, although I don't agree with the carb curve. I like Perfect Health Diet and WAPF Lactofermentation a lot.

                    Griff's cholesterol primer
                    5,000 Cal Fat <> 5,000 Cal Carbs
                    Winterbike: What I eat every day is what other people eat to treat themselves.
                    TQP: I find for me that nutrition is much more important than what I do in the gym.
                    bloodorchid is always right

                    Comment


                    • 'alpha dog' is just attitude, size and bearing have no... bearing on it
                      beautiful
                      yeah you are

                      Baby if you time travel back far enough you can avoid that work because the dust won't be there. You're too pretty to be working that hard.
                      lol

                      Comment


                      • Well, strength does matter a little. My wife is quite thin, and when my dad's labrador runs up to greet me (cause OMG, I've just made her day by turning up and BEING ME), she sometimes circles me (running between us), which means my wife gets physically shunted out of the way. My wife understandably gets a little shitty about that. Although, I can see the funny side.. .
                        Disclaimer: I eat 'meat and vegetables' ala Primal, although I don't agree with the carb curve. I like Perfect Health Diet and WAPF Lactofermentation a lot.

                        Griff's cholesterol primer
                        5,000 Cal Fat <> 5,000 Cal Carbs
                        Winterbike: What I eat every day is what other people eat to treat themselves.
                        TQP: I find for me that nutrition is much more important than what I do in the gym.
                        bloodorchid is always right

                        Comment


                        • yeah my sister's pit puppy can body check my shins out of my flesh on accident sometimes and i'm 5'10. but it's cause he's happy and playing and really stout, not because be thinks he's the boss of me

                          tell your wife to stop being a pushover

                          also here's this from The Bay (tm) (c)

                          http://www.ywgrossman.com/photoblog/?s=pit+bull
                          beautiful
                          yeah you are

                          Baby if you time travel back far enough you can avoid that work because the dust won't be there. You're too pretty to be working that hard.
                          lol

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by magicmerl View Post
                            I think that part of it is that 'guy' body language is similar to dog body language (except for the crotch sniffing that is ). Just think of 'male bonding' (chest bumps etc) and extrapolate out to canines. Getting some rough pats/whacks on the shoulders and chest while being told that he's a good dog seems like most dog's idea of heaven (caveat: not little little dogs, but you don't have one of those).

                            Whereas girls/women seem to have been socialised into thinking that's not ladylike. Maybe?
                            hmm...maybe. i'm not worried about being ladylike really. maybe a little subconscious thing? growing up, my dad had a big golden retriever who could be an oaf. i enjoyed being able to handle a dog roughly, playfully. i wasn't petting/patting/rubbing hard enough unless i was physically moving him. i honestly think it has more to do with a deeper voice and taller stature. plus his trainers were all male, and even stated to me that i'm going to have to be extra firm with him, because i'm female, to train him. just a few more hours and then i can feed him! poor guy has watched me grill and eat a t-bone, and he hasn't eaten since yesterday.
                            my primal journal:
                            http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum...Primal-Journal

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Saoirse View Post
                              poor guy was castrated today. we've had a high of 104, and instructions to give no food or water until tomorrow morning, and no walks or play for 7-10 days. well, he's still going to get some walks. he's just way too curious to sit at home all day. and i've given him a tiny bit of water, twice. we're talking about 1/4 c each time. it's just too hot to go without water. i was able to get him to heel during most of our walk (onleash) around the back yard. and not by force either, just by asserting that we weren't moving forward until obeyed. poor guy is so bored right now.
                              Is he bored or just not thinking about humping the neighbor's collie? I'd look quite bored too if you took my thoughts of sex away.
                              And you've read all about how to care for him from books and online sites but disregarded the vet looking at you and saying "no water, no walks, no play, etc."...come on now, the vet didn't tell you that for shits and giggles.
                              If I just said LOL, I lied. Do or do not. There is no try.

                              Comment


                              • I know that dogs/wolves are predators and horses are prey- but have you looked at the pack structure? Horses, and apparently elephants, are matriarchial. The males are around to play stud, fight predators and, in the case of horses, to keep the herds separate. It's the oldest/strongest female that is actually in charge of day-to-day movements and discipline. My thoughts on this being- I know that there is an alpha-female wolf. I'm just not sure exactly what her role is. In other words, being female might not be a problem. Becoming the "boss mare" tends to be about being the one smart/old enough to know how to take care of the others and being fair in the discipline meted out. The herd my boss mare lived with followed her because they trusted her.
                                http://cattaillady.com/ My blog exploring the beginning stages of learning how to homestead. With the occasional rant.

                                Originally Posted by TheFastCat: Less is more more or less

                                And now I have an Etsy store: CattailsandCalendula

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