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  • Originally posted by drssgchic View Post
    I know for the animals that I've met- if they have rules- or better yet, jobs- they feel more secure and are therefore better behaved. I hear this also applies to children.

    Hey- speaking of jobs- would you trust the kid enough to "assign" him as your baby's protector at gatherings? Job description including both protecting the baby from others AND setting a good example (ie, behaving himself, you know, for the kid) It sounds like he has potential since he was taking the time to play a baby-safe game- he just hasn't had much encouragement.
    hmmm...he has more rules than my kids do. i don't want to get more specific in a public forum, but i think there may be too much punishment and not quite enough actual discipline in his life. the protector role is an interesting suggestion, but that would be usurping my son's role as protector. we've indoctrinated him with the idea that oldest children are responsible for helping the younger kids stay safe and providing a good role model. Well, more specifically, we've taught him that younger kids are usually going to try to emulate him, so he needs to remember that when he makes his decisions. I could talk to my son and explain that it's a trick of sorts to help H treat everyone nicely, he might be on board with that. or he might see it as me supporting H as a person exercising authority over everyone. hmmm...that is another interesting idea. If H bullies because he wants to be the leader of the pack, maybe I could find a book to gift to him about leading judiciously; if such a book exists for kids. I know he likes to read.
    my primal journal:
    http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum...Primal-Journal

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    • I like your Momma bear approach. He knows he's messing with a bigger bully that way. Your simple and clear language left nothing unclear about how you felt. I also think the idea of giving him the job of protector has quite a bit of value. If you change his perception of himself, he can become the kid who protects others from bullying and make a big difference as he already has size on his side.

      Dressage, you are quite wise!

      Comment


      • Co-protector works too...
        It's basically just teaching him a different way of seeing himself in relation to other children.
        You don't want to see himself as an authority over other kids so much as a benevolent big brother.
        A benevolent leader is a leader still... just of a very different flavor. More of a quiet watchful eye and setting a good example.
        But that a well timed 'hey, careful around the babies' with other children is fine.

        And explaining it to your son is a big plus. I'm sure he will get it.

        My son ended up in protector role once he got big... but I didn't have to trick him to get him there... maybe it was just my parenting style.
        “You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist.”
        ~Friedrich Nietzsche
        And that's why I'm here eating HFLC Primal/Paleo.

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        • Mud Flinger- Thank you! Now if only I could apply my wisdom instead of just spouting it off . . .

          Saoirse- You're right, it would be bad to usurp your eldest's role. How well do H and your son get along? Do you think you could get them to work as a team? Your son is responsible for his sibs all the time, and during get-togethers he and H can team up beacuse there's more going on? It sounds like your kid has his head on straight, so maybe he'd be a good example?

          Gotcha on the punishment vs discipline. Actually, that can make your job easier, maybe. If you can give him a clear structure and discipline that is more positive reinforcement than negative, he might latch onto it big time. The "nos" still need to be absolute for the safety of your own children, but if they're consistant and he has the possibility of getting "yes," he will at least be given the chance of giving the right answer.
          http://cattaillady.com/ My blog exploring the beginning stages of learning how to homestead. With the occasional rant.

          Originally Posted by TheFastCat: Less is more more or less

          And now I have an Etsy store: CattailsandCalendula

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          • *narrows eyes at Cori* Get out of my head . . .


            http://cattaillady.com/ My blog exploring the beginning stages of learning how to homestead. With the occasional rant.

            Originally Posted by TheFastCat: Less is more more or less

            And now I have an Etsy store: CattailsandCalendula

            Comment


            • mud flinger- i agree. i hate that i had to play into that bully dynamic to get my point across, but i was simply at a loss as to what else to do. i think as long as we stay within that aggressive dynamic, nothing will really change.

              cori- i was 5 and 6 years older than two of my younger brothers. when kids bugged them at the park, i was eager to step in. probably a little over-eager. i was never aggressive, just menacing in the background while my brothers played.

              Maybe I could gather the three older kids (H, D, and my oldest) and have a little pow-wow where we teach them how to be benevolent leaders. Really, D and my kid don't need it, but I think putting them in a group together might be better because it would avoid singling him out in an uncomfortable way, which really isn't for his benefit so much as his parents'. I think they are more of the attitude that "kids will be kids."
              my primal journal:
              http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum...Primal-Journal

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              • Actually, D and your kid might benefit from it. Today's world is all about "team players." They both have their crap together, so how do they deal when one of their "team" doesn't?

                Sounds like you have a plan!
                http://cattaillady.com/ My blog exploring the beginning stages of learning how to homestead. With the occasional rant.

                Originally Posted by TheFastCat: Less is more more or less

                And now I have an Etsy store: CattailsandCalendula

                Comment


                • Originally posted by drssgchic View Post
                  Mud Flinger- Thank you! Now if only I could apply my wisdom instead of just spouting it off . . .

                  Saoirse- You're right, it would be bad to usurp your eldest's role. How well do H and your son get along? Do you think you could get them to work as a team? Your son is responsible for his sibs all the time, and during get-togethers he and H can team up beacuse there's more going on? It sounds like your kid has his head on straight, so maybe he'd be a good example?
                  they get along like oil and water. H is usually aggressive and pushy with him. if they both happen to want to do the same things or play the same way then things go well between them. however, if my son doesn't want to do what H wants to do, H will find ways to "persuade" him.

                  Gotcha on the punishment vs discipline. Actually, that can make your job easier, maybe. If you can give him a clear structure and discipline that is more positive reinforcement than negative, he might latch onto it big time. The "nos" still need to be absolute for the safety of your own children, but if they're consistant and he has the possibility of getting "yes," he will at least be given the chance of giving the right answer.
                  hmmm...this concept is too abstract. can you help me understand what you're saying?
                  my primal journal:
                  http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum...Primal-Journal

                  Comment


                  • Another thing I have seen work well to reinforce behavior is handing out a "special prize" to the kid or kids who do well. Maybe an invite to go for ice cream or some other with your family when he has done particularly well. Do you know something he is into? A thank you card can work wonders as well - sent through the mail to him. Kids love to get mail and a thank you card is a rare thing so it may make some impact (and is cost effective - other prizes can get pricey). I like your idea of a book too. Maybe showing special attention is really what this kid needs/desires.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Saoirse View Post
                      Anyway, so I led him away from the party, looked him straight in the eye, and put on my "I'm so pissed right now, i can only talk in this quiet, strained way" voice. In extremely few words, I basically said:

                      "this is my baby. "
                      awkward pause as i stared him down.
                      "i heard that you were going to dump water on his head"
                      more awkward pause.
                      "you do not TOUCH my baby."
                      stare.
                      "are we clear?"
                      he nodded.
                      more awkward pause.
                      "GO play."
                      I'm not a parent, so I don't know what my opinion is worth here, but I think you handled this situation beautifully.

                      One year in my classroom, we had a major (and majorly sneaky) bully and a practically non-verbal autistic five-year-old who could not defend himself in any way, shape, or form. (I call him non-verbal although he did talk - but it was just echolalia of TV and video games - no meaningful conversation whatsoever.) This kid clung to my shirt for the larger part of five hours every single day thinking I was a fellow character on a video game. If someone hit him, he couldn't tell me. If he needed something, he couldn't tell me. So I watched the bully like a hawk and made it very, very clear that he was NOT to touch this kid. EVER.

                      And he didn't. We were supposed to have loving conversations about why Little Billy hit or spat or did the nasty thing with his booger, but I wouldn't engage. The loving conversations never made the slightest bit of difference. He did it because he liked it, and nothing changed that ever. But he was absolutely not to touch the kid who walked around the classroom holding my shirt and calling me Ratchet (from the video game - he thought he was Clank). Or the mouth of hell would open under his feet. LEAVE MY BABY ALONE. He doesn't even know what planet he's on.
                      JOIN THE PANDA SHOW!!! Primal With A Side Of FABULOUS and PANDALOONERY!

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                      • Humans are social animals. Therefore, we want to please the people around us at some level. From what you have told us, I suspect that he hasn't really gotten a chance to figure out 1- that he CAN do the right thing and 2- how good it can feel when he does. So he takes out his frustration on smaller people because that's the dynamic he knows.

                        You can train a horse two ways. You can push it and punish it and dictate to it until it gives you the right answers. That horse WILL give the right answers because to do otherwise tends to be painful. However, it will only give you what you demand and it will be sulky if it retains any personality at all. The other option is to set it up to win. When you make a request ignore any wrong answers and praise any right answers. Make giving the right answer easy. That horse will give the right answer because it wants to please you which means that it will be far more likely to go above and beyond for you.

                        So in this case- if you see him doing something that isn't good, but doesn't harm your kids, he gets ignored. (If he messes with your kids he get's Mama Beared because that's just the way the world works) If you see him playing nicely with your baby or (politely) moderating an argument between kids or anything that is a GOOD thing, you take a moment to praise him in some non-embarassing way.

                        If that's their dynamic, a team would be tougher. However, he is going to have to deal with H's for the rest of his life, and he could start developing his skills now?
                        http://cattaillady.com/ My blog exploring the beginning stages of learning how to homestead. With the occasional rant.

                        Originally Posted by TheFastCat: Less is more more or less

                        And now I have an Etsy store: CattailsandCalendula

                        Comment


                        • I'm not so sure about "learning to do deal with bullies for the rest of one's life", as an adult I really can't recall when I've been in a situation where I had to be around some one who was a bully, if some one is obnoxious I don't associate with them.
                          Life is death. We all take turns. It's sacred to eat during our turn and be eaten when our turn is over. RichMahogany.

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                          • Originally posted by Gay Panda View Post
                            We were supposed to have loving conversations about why Little Billy hit or spat or did the nasty thing with his booger, but I wouldn't engage. The loving conversations never made the slightest bit of difference.
                            this is mostly how i feel about the situation. most kids don't need to be told that you walk on eggshells around a baby/toddler. if a kid forgot that taboo and an adult mentioned it to him, the kid would generally be just simply upset that he messed up. this kid would obediently apologize and then just b more sneaky next time. i'm painting a pretty awful picture, he's not rotten to the core. i think he has a social issue and the challenge is to help him become enculturated without bruising the egos of his parents.

                            hmm...so do you have any ideas about how to help my son and daughter deal with this? we've told them again and again to use force if necessary (and how to do that) but i think they know that they're outmatched and so they don't.
                            my primal journal:
                            http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum...Primal-Journal

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                            • Originally posted by Saoirse View Post
                              hmm...so do you have any ideas about how to help my son and daughter deal with this? we've told them again and again to use force if necessary (and how to do that) but i think they know that they're outmatched and so they don't.
                              *cough* TASER *cough*

                              seriously though perhaps some form of martial art...something using the opponents size against them with correct leverage and all. Sorry, I have no specific suggestion as to which but there has to be one out there somewhere. I assume just not being around the kid is not possible?

                              Comment


                              • lol@taser.
                                when D punched H in the throat, ALL of the adults were nodding in approval, even H's parents.
                                unfortunately not. hubby and i have been friends with his parents for years, and we're going into business together. this dynamic has been around for the entirety of our relationship, and it has always been a really difficult issue for me.
                                my primal journal:
                                http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum...Primal-Journal

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