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  • The Joy of Running

    Though I agree with 99% of the PB, I have an issue with Mark's attitude towards serious cardio avoidance in general and running in particular. From what I can tell, it seems to stem from his years as an (excessively) competitive athlete, but not all of us are like him.

    I love to run, but not seriously. I just finished 5 miles at a 9" pace, and felt like a gazelle (OK a 60 yo 225 lb gazelle) skimming over the streets in my VFF's. I do the occasional 5k or 10k race, preferably a beer run. I'd love to do a (half) marathon, but it takes too much time to train for long races - I need my time for Lifting Heaving Things, Play, etc.

    My guess is since this is the Athletes forum, many of you are either like me, enjoy running, biking, etc. for the love of it, or perhaps you are more like Mark, driven to compete and win.

    How do you feel about Chronic Cardio? Unhealthy? Joyful?
    Click here for my hiking and backpacking Youtube Channel

  • #2
    I think some of Mark's later posts have refined his stance on cardio. I think he is not opposed as long as you're not pushing too hard (less than 75% max HR) for too long.

    The Health Benefits of Moderate Exercise | Mark's Daily Apple

    I came across this rebuttal of Mark's arguments against chronic cardio. I think on many points, Mark would agree with this:
    Debunking Chronic Cardio: How Running Keeps you Lean, Fit, and Young
    Last edited by yodiewan; 11-08-2013, 07:37 AM.

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    • #3
      I'm not an athlete by any stretch of the imagination, but I love running. I got into it almost 2 years ago, and at some point last year I was running 30+ miles a week, usually at 10 minute mile pace, but sometimes as HIIT.
      I'm not really concerned with Mark's stance on "chronic cardio", but AFAIK he says if someone enjoys running there is really no reason to stop doing it.
      For me, as ridiculous as it may sound, running brings me to something like a meditative state and it energizes me, plus it elevates my mood for the rest of the day without increasing my appetite.
      Check out the cardio and getting ripped thread in the fitness sub-forum. Personally, "getting ripped" is not something I'm interested to pursue though.
      I have somewhat cut back on the distance, but I still do about 4 miles 5 days a week and I don't think it's unhealthy in anyway. Actually, it's great for cardiovascular health.

      In my opinion (I'm sure unpopular in the these circles) Mark and other Paleo gurus want to be too much anti - CW, hence their stance is generally anti-endurance training.

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      • #4
        I just started jogging (can't say running, and it's really more like plodding) recently, both as part of my physical therapy following ACL reconstruction surgery in my left knee in January, and as a way to build my endurance for sparring in tae kwon do. I'm not a runner. Never have been. Never imagined that I would willingly go out in 40-degree weather to jog. But for my love of TKD (and my hatred of losing steam during sparring), I've decided to train for my first-ever 5K. It probably sounds silly that I have to train for it, but I do. I'm slow. When I first started sporadically jogging/walking about 6 months post-surgery, I was in the 13's (13+ minute mile).

        For my training, I've been walking/jogging three times a week (1 min walk/3-4 min jog, 6-9 intervals, depending on the day), plus 30-45 min on a stationary bike on a strength-training level on 2-3 of the off days (continuing to build my quad strength on my post-surgery leg). I have three more 1 min walk/4 min jog X 8 intervals, and then 4 sessions of jogging steadily for 30 - 40 min before the race. I don't think this puts me in Chronic Cardio level.

        And honestly? Even if it did? I'm jogging with a purpose. I want to not lose my breath when I spar. (I'm also doing TKD 3 times each week, as usual, with 1 of the classes as a 90+ min sparring class.) So if this means I'm in the Chronic Cardio category, I don't care. I'm careful -- I cool down and stretch after I train, and then I ice my post-surgery knee. And I'm dedicated. I'm doing this.

        I sort of hope that I'll get bitten by the jogging bug. Right now, I'm in the 11's and 12's, but I would love to get to a 10-minute mile. But I figure my first step is do the 5K, then figure out a training plan - maybe 1 day for speed, 1 day for intervals, and 1 day for a long, steady jog. (One day, I hope to say "run" instead of "jog.") Who knows? Maybe when I test for my black belt in May, I'll be doing a 10-minute mile.

        (Rambling response - sorry about that!)
        F, 44 years old, 111.8 lbs, 4 feet 11.5 inches (yes, that half inch matters!)

        **1st place sparring, AAU TKD regional qualifier, 2/15/15 - It's damn good to hit like a girl!**

        **First-ever 5K race 11/28/13: 37 minutes, 18+ seconds, no stopping**

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        • #5
          Originally posted by yodiewan View Post
          I think some of Mark's later posts have refined his stance on cardio. I think he is not opposed as long as you're not pushing too hard (less than 75% max HR) for too long.
          The Health Benefits of Moderate Exercise | Mark's Daily Apple
          I came across this rebuttal of Mark's arguments against chronic cardio. I think on many points, Mark would agree with this:
          Debunking Chronic Cardio: How Running Keeps you Lean, Fit, and Young
          Wow, that rebuttal is really well done. Hadn't seen that, thanks for the reference. Pretty much mirrors my thoughts.

          As to Mark's article on moderate exercise, I agree he is backing off a bit on his opposition to chronic cardio, but I have issues with his 75% limit. In theory, as a 60 yo male, my max heart rate is 160, so my 75% level is only 120. Good grief, that's my warm-up rate. I run at about 140 bpm.

          I think part of the difficulty is the heart rate charts are statistically derived, and represent the average person. A fit athlete has a "biological age" potentially significantly lower than the average, and the heart rate charts don't seem to take that into account.

          Thanks again for your useful post.
          Last edited by Sonoran hotdog; 11-08-2013, 08:15 AM. Reason: typos
          Click here for my hiking and backpacking Youtube Channel

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Graycat View Post
            For me, as ridiculous as it may sound, running brings me to something like a meditative state and it energizes me, plus it elevates my mood for the rest of the day without increasing my appetite.
            Exactly. Like me, you are in the "running is enjoyable" camp. I don't "get" the comments about running being boring. I sort through my thoughts, ponder the upcoming day, mull over issues in my head, and finish a run refreshed. I don't wear headphones - my guess is those are for people who experience running as boring.
            Click here for my hiking and backpacking Youtube Channel

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            • #7
              Originally posted by JackieKessler View Post
              <snip>I've decided to train for my first-ever 5K. It probably sounds silly that I have to train for it, but I do. I'm slow. When I first started sporadically jogging/walking about 6 months post-surgery, I was in the 13's (13+ minute mile).

              And honestly? Even if it did? I'm jogging with a purpose. I want to not lose my breath when I spar. (I'm also doing TKD 3 times each week, as usual, with 1 of the classes as a 90+ min sparring class.)

              (Rambling response - sorry about that!)
              Good for you! I love doing 5k's for the camaraderie. I had to train for years for my first one.

              I jog for fun, but for a purpose also - climbing mountains takes a fair amount of cardiovascular fitness.

              No need to apologize for an interesting post!
              Click here for my hiking and backpacking Youtube Channel

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              • #8
                My name is RelayGirl, and I am a running addict. I can't stop, I don't want to stop, and I'm not going to stop. I'm running on ribeyes

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                • #9
                  I love running, but I can't run, so I don't anymore. Not everyone can, and it can be hard on the body. If you are one of those, you'll find out too late to do anything about it.

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                  • #10
                    I like to jog 10-12 min/miles for some of my 2-5hours of movement. I'm 37. Is that likely to be at or below 75%?

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by hillfinnie View Post
                      I like to jog 10-12 min/miles for some of my 2-5hours of movement. I'm 37. Is that likely to be at or below 75%?
                      Hi, hillfinnie, and welcome to the forum!

                      The only way to know for sure is to check your pulse. I think if I ran at that pace, I would be right around 170 bpm, which I think is considered about 75% of max HR. I prefer doing my long slow distance cardio closer to 140bpm (or less when walking), but that's just me.

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                      • #12
                        Mini thread jack to ask:

                        Do you have any tips for running in the winter? I'm talking below freezing with an inch of ice on the ground, sooooo maybe the gym is best... But I cannot get treadmills. My body just doesn't work on them. Good alternatives or other supplements to cardio?

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by RittenRemedy View Post
                          Mini thread jack to ask:

                          Do you have any tips for running in the winter? I'm talking below freezing with an inch of ice on the ground, sooooo maybe the gym is best... But I cannot get treadmills. My body just doesn't work on them. Good alternatives or other supplements to cardio?
                          I cannot really advise on running outdoors since I'm from the southern U.S. :-) Would snowshoeing get your heart rate up enough? For indoors I like bikes/cycles better than treadmills. Rowing machine is also nice. Jump rope and KB swings could also be used.

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                          • #14
                            Thanks, I'm going to calculate my heart rate and do the math. Walking outdoors in cold weather with snowshoes is one of my favorites. Let it snow!

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by RittenRemedy View Post
                              Mini thread jack to ask:

                              Do you have any tips for running in the winter? I'm talking below freezing with an inch of ice on the ground, sooooo maybe the gym is best... But I cannot get treadmills. My body just doesn't work on them. Good alternatives or other supplements to cardio?
                              I bought a pair of Vibram Five-Finger Lontras, which are meant for colder weather running (I believe down to 20 degrees F). I've been using them for the past week or so, and I love them. Haven't tried them with slush/ice on the ground, but I will tomorrow morning. I'll let you know how it goes.

                              Also, cold-weather gear, by Under Armor and other manufacturers, has been a godsend. I make sure I'm wearing a very good cold-weather long sleeved shirt, as well as a thermal zip-up, good gloves, a wool neckerchief/scarf thingie that I can double as a half-facemask, and a thermal cap to make sure my ears are covered.
                              F, 44 years old, 111.8 lbs, 4 feet 11.5 inches (yes, that half inch matters!)

                              **1st place sparring, AAU TKD regional qualifier, 2/15/15 - It's damn good to hit like a girl!**

                              **First-ever 5K race 11/28/13: 37 minutes, 18+ seconds, no stopping**

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